HD Again....Progressive vs . Interlaced...

Comments

farss wrote on 2/24/2005, 5:33 AM
For my 2 bobs worth I think this issue gets way too clouded when we compare say 25p with 50i. Of course you are dealing with greater temporal resolution and that will have benefits. What you really should be comparing is 25p and 25i or 50i and 50p.
Just as an aside film systems were used that ran at 60fps to produce a 'super reality' look, used mostly in fairground entertainment. As the system gobbled up 70mm at 60 fps needless to say it didn't gain much popularity with the Hollywood moguls.
However there's been some talk of using variable frame rate systems, pretty simple idea in this digital age. The DOP can set the fps to suit the look he wants or just to save bandwidth. But the trick is, it gets projected at the same variable frame rate. So for fast action sequences he can run it at 100fps to scare the pants off us, for a romantic interlude it could probably drop down to 20fps.
Bob.
riredale wrote on 2/24/2005, 9:21 AM
Interesting idea. Kind of like VBR encoding for MPEG2--use the bits where they're most needed. Still, it might create some very major headaches (figuratively and literally) to implement with display technology.

I think Microsoft has a demo on their site showing how they are able to fabricate intermediate frames to eliminate motion artifacts. One day in the not-too-distant future I think this will be common. After all, why shoot 60p when you can shoot perhaps 10p and generate realistic intermediate frames to give the illusion of 60p?

By the way, as for which format should be used to ensure future playability, I'd have to say that Hollywood instinctively knows that answer--24f/sec film. Guaranteed compatibility with whatever comes down the pike, simply because the vaults are full of material created in this format. Horrible motion artifacts, but any DP knows how to minimize them with proper shooting technique, and as just mentioned above some sort of intermediate frame generator will one day be able to help.
richardfrost wrote on 2/24/2005, 9:50 AM
..I think Microsoft has a demo on their site showing how they are able to fabricate intermediate frames to eliminate motion artifacts. One day in the not-too-distant future I think this will be common. After all, why shoot 60p when you can shoot perhaps 10p and generate realistic intermediate frames to give the illusion of 60p?..

These Microsoft generated intermediate frames would actually be a completely generated image, i.e. a representation of actuality but not actually an image of the real world through a lens. To whom would intellectual copyright of these images belong? 'The camera never lies' would become a moot point, as the capabilities of the software start to have an impact on resulting recording.

The next step would be for the camera to perform all sorts of other image enhancements, using the optical information received throught the lens as just one of many streams of information used to create the resulting recording. For instance, knowledge of the topography and spatial characteristics of the set, information on the physical properties of features on the set (e.g. what textures are to be seen and how they might be represented from different angles), combined with images from multiple cameras, could result in the creation of a complete virtual recording of the subject, able to be digitally recreated from multiple angles or with simulated camera motion or pans and zooms.

I think I'll crawl back into my box now....
VOGuy wrote on 2/24/2005, 5:48 PM
Hi Spot.

The road which brought me to my current career, took me through a period as an audio engineer and studio operator, during which I developed a serious interest in motion picture sound. I hung around some motion people sound people, bought a few books and attended a few SMTPE events. I thought some of this info might be in a 1980s issuance of "The Audio Cyclopedia" that I had, but I looked and it wasn't there.

Some of my information came from hanging around Scottsound, and discussions with the late, and greatly missed, Bruce Scott, who had a lot of good stories about early motion picture audio history. I also heard stories from some of the other folks who visited there.

As I recall, the 24 fps was chosen not only for the number of feet-per-second necessary to produce 9kHz without excessive noise, but also because it needed to be some sort rate easily divisible so that an 1800 rpm synchronous motor could be used in a projector. I still haven't figured out how the number 24 works there, but that's what I was told. Apparently, there were concerns that 30 fps would be too hard on the projector's sprocket and claw mechanisms, and 20 was not considered adequate when film resolution, optics, film printing techniques, etc. were taken into consideration.

Considering that most of this came from some old film-audio guys, it is probably suspect -- But it sounded good at the time.

-Travis (Voiceover Guy and Entertainment Technology hobbyist.)
farss wrote on 2/24/2005, 11:07 PM
No need to crawl back in the box, from my limited grasp of mpeg-4 part of the spec allows for much like this. You can (I think) tell the encoder that part of the frame is a still image so it doesn't waste time encoding it. Of course having it as part of the spec is one thing, anyone working out how to use it is quite another.
Bob.