HD Black/Red Frame Prob - Is Sony in Denial?

2G wrote on 6/26/2008, 9:17 PM

I have been getting random solid red frames on the timeline on m2t files. The audio usually drops out and flatlines at that point. When I'm playing the clip or when I'm rendering it out, the screen goes black and the audio goes silent IF I'm lucky enough not to have Vegas simply crash completely when it hits that point. (I'm on 8.0b) This is happening way too often and is affecting my delivery of videos to my clients since I'm continually having to work around this.

I initially thought it was a capture problem and/or the actual media file was corrupted. But I now realize it has nothing to do with a corrupted media file. The same media file that red-frames and crashes vegas reads and plays fine in Premiere. I needed some audio from a clip that vegas wouldn't play. I ended up having to read the clip into Adobe Audition and re-render it out as a WAV from Audition. This is inexcusable for a supposedly 'professional' product. Today, I rendered a project from vegas to an m2t file and brought the m2t back in, and IT has the red frames and crashes (and where the red frames are in the rendered file, there are no red frames in the vegas project at that time point.

I only moved to HD a few months ago. But I remember reading complaints about the "black frame" issue for what seems like a couple of years. Come on.... there has never been a more obvious blantant BUG in the program. Is Sony in denial? Has anyone actually been successful in talking to Sony about this?

I would open a formal problem report like I would do with any legitimate software vendor. But the last two times I've found and reported bugs through the formal channels, it was a joke. In both cases, it took TWO WEEKS to get even an acknowledgement from Sony. Then I got what looked like an autoresponder suggesting I read an article on what digital video is.... I replied and NEVER heard back... that is, until I got the "survey" telling me Sony values my opinion and asking how much I liked their excellent service. I replied and never heard anything else, and the problems never got fixed. I just finally figured a way to work around them. Tell me why I want to go through that useless effort again....

I want this problem fixed. But I don't need the pain and zero results from trying to open a formal problem report again.

Sorry for the venting. But I'm building my video production business with a dependency on having a working product from Sony. And to me it's inexcusable that this severity 1 bug has been reported for as long as it has with no apparent interest by Sony to address it.

Has ANYBODY gotten an official word from Sony on this problem? Is there anything that can be done short of wasting my time going through the useless Sony problem report channel?

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Comments

rmack350 wrote on 7/3/2008, 10:34 AM

I'm reading between the lines a little on that, and being a little skeptical because I'm not sure what they mean by HDV Reader. If they mean a capture tool then that particular part of the 8c would be addressing captures to disk from source rather than rendering new media off the timeline.

Hope for the best, prepare for less. But to be fair, this part they want user testing is probably not the only thing that'll get into 8c, so they may very well want user feedback on a capture tool and yet still have other fixes for other things like your writing of m2t files.

Rob

Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/3/2008, 11:16 AM

The capture tool as many have stated, is the weakest link in Vegas Pro. It's functional - but barely. I'd like to see the ability to actually do batch capture via logs from tape based m2t acquire footage like how you can from miniDV shot tapes.

It would probably resolve scene splitting issues that seem to be a part of the Red/Black frame bug and in general, make my life alot easier when it comes time to ingest footage into Vegas Pro.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com

rmack350 wrote on 7/3/2008, 11:41 AM

Agreed. I don't really know if the the capture tool is what they want tested, but I'm pointing out that this particular thing may not solve every single problem. But maybe the rest of 8c will.

I use batch capture all the time with DV, including importing logs taken in excel at the shoot. Vidcap is woefully useless for this and I can only imagine the HDV capture tool is even worse.

Rob

CorTed wrote on 7/3/2008, 1:07 PM

I agree Rob.
There are some serious issues with v8 we have all discussed at length including major memory related problems, which I assume they refer to as instability problems. I don't think a new vid cap piece will fix all those, but at least they are admittting problems, and I think between a new capture utility and the forthcoming (hopefully memory) fixes in 8.0c we may actually be back on the road of stability.... ;)

Ted

rmack350 wrote on 7/3/2008, 1:26 PM

Yes! I'd like to read some happy posts for a few weeks ;-)

My (slight) fear is that the fix will mainly be in the way Vegas captures media and everyone will have to recapture footage. And then we'll be reading sad posts for a while.

Rob

John_Cline wrote on 7/3/2008, 4:58 PM

"HDV reader" is probably the .DLL file that reads the HDV file and passes the data along to the MPEG2 decoder. It has nothing to do with the capture utility.

2G wrote on 7/3/2008, 8:43 PM

Where capture might be a general problem it is not the cause of the red frame problem. I can guarantee beyond any shadow of doubt that the red/black frame problem has NOTHING to do with how the media was captured. As I have stated a bunch of times already, I have RENDERED an m2t file from Vegas (in a project that did NOT have red frames); brought the rendered m2t back into Vegas and get the red frames. That can't possibly be related to capture. I've also captured with 2 other non Sony capture programs, and bring the footage into Vegas and get the red frames. Finally, I can bring m2t files that get red frames in Vegas into Premiere Pro and it's completely clean.

If all Sony has done is 'fix' the capture in 8.0c, then we're all doomed to red frames for another very long time.

John_Cline wrote on 7/3/2008, 9:27 PM

"If all Sony has done is 'fix' the capture in 8.0c, then we're all doomed to red frames for another very long time."

Where did this whole capture rumor get started? You guys are getting all worked up over NOTHING. They are fixing the HDV READER in Vegas, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the capture program. The fix is for the black/red frames and it all has to do with the DECODER, not the capture program.

rmack350 wrote on 7/3/2008, 11:44 PM

(Thought I sent this earlier but I don't see it.)

Thanks John, that makes sense to me.

Rob

rmack350 wrote on 7/3/2008, 11:48 PM

That rumor is coming from me because I couldn't figure out what they were referring to as a reader. Sorry. Your guess about what a reader is is probably right.

Rob

Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/4/2008, 11:45 AM

I can't take it any longer...

I was editing my project all fine yesterday - no issues at all.

Today, I open it back up - Red frame/black frame bug all over again - this is the fourth time I have had to recapture the same tape - there are no issues playing it back in the camera - and the client is breathing down my neck for this DVD.

I've captured with both the Vegas Capture Utility and HDVSplit - both initially play fine on the timeline. But eventually it degrades to the point of the frame bugs resurfacing and audio then goes out of synch. Not good for a voice recital

I'm at a loss as to what to do now - I've explained to the client about the tech issues, but they still want it delivered on Monday - what do I do now???

This feels like a cluster you know what...

I don't think I can wait for 8.0c to be released - I've lost $$$ on this shoot now due to this bug.

I think it's time to find another NLE - I can't afford to base my business on software that loses me money.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com

Tom Pauncz wrote on 7/4/2008, 12:22 PM

Cliff,
I am really very new to HDv and the .m2t files, but I am now wondering if this is a capture issue.

I have a test project, that has over 100 m2t clips on it and yesterday when I opened it I had some red frames. Shut it down, open it and the red frames were gone.

Now, I opened the SAME project, nothing has changed and not only did I see red frames, but Vegas crashed.

Now the mystery - the clips came off a CF card written on the device that comes with the S270. Were never 'captured' by anything, just file copied to the computer.

So, I am wondering if your red frames would go away by just re-opening the project. Again, I am very new to this, so apologies if this was already discussed.

Tom

edit: just for the helluvit I opened the project that just crashed and this time it came up, no red frames, nothing. In between I did open another project that had both avi and m2t files, but nowhere near the number of clips of the one that died.

rmack350 wrote on 7/4/2008, 12:48 PM

I think a lot of people are convinced that it's not in the capture but just in the reading of the file. This becomes a bigger problem if Vegas has to render from what it reads because that sets the error into stone.

It seems to me at this point that, even with a promised fix in the pipeline, if you can't do paying work with Vegas then you need to use another NLE. You can't really wait for a fix or spend your time troubleshooting SCS's problem. SCS can worry about luring customers back to Vegas later, after they pay off the cost of the second NLE.

This is similar to how you deal with broken gear in the middle of a shoot - you replace it or dump it, but you don't try to fix it.

Rob

Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/4/2008, 9:26 PM

installed my old copy of PPro 1.5.1 and will recapture in Cineform AVI mode tomorrow.

I'm now pretty much gun shy on using Vegas - I have been a strong advocate for the application but this experience of my inability to get work done due to known software issues has me looking back to Adobe. I was considering Avid but the learning curve is too steep and I know PPro, along with Audition 1.5, AE 6.5.1 and Encore 1.5 - so it's more or less a wash for me on SONY's apps. About the only app I truly trust is my old copy of Acid Pro 4.

FYI - I brought the same clips into a colleagues PPro 2.0 and yes - something has happened to the clip as they also show a glitch - funny thing is - this clip was tried in PPro 2.0 a week ago withnno issues - now it has the bug since being used within Vegas Pro - That's not a good sign IMO.

Maybe these issues will be resolved, but I'm no longer willing to be a beta tester.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com

epirb wrote on 7/4/2008, 9:40 PM

i mentioned this along time ago, and maybe most know already.
But i too was having the black frame issue, still probably am IF my project is set for the std HDV 1440 and i render to that. Since virtually all of must stuff is output to std def DVD.
I set my project to 720 30p (native m2t's on the T/L)and render out to that as as master track or sections, what have you.. by doing this I have never had a black frame issue, not when rendering out or playing any orig m2t on the T/L.
all my source m2t's are from an FX1 captured in Vegas

not the solution for everybody but just something to think about.
I am obviously still hoping for a fix, so that i could render much faster w smart rendering and all the other upsides to it workig correctly.
this work around has at least got me thru my projects with Vegas staying stable and no black frame issue to worry about.

John_Cline wrote on 7/4/2008, 10:12 PM

I wouldn't go back to Premiere, even at gunpoint. I own it, but I hate it. I was in it yesterday because a client brought me a project started in Premiere. The are numerous things about Premiere that just bug me no end, but the one that did it yesterday was Premiere's inability to continue playing the timeline while adjusting effect parameters. In fact, click on ANYTHING in Premiere and playback stops. What a waste of time. I'm completely spoiled by Vegas.

rmack350 wrote on 7/5/2008, 12:40 AM

We've got three PPro/Axio systems and have been in the position of not being able to work numerous times. I think I'd keep both NLEs for a while in the hopes that one will be stabilized.

This HDV problem is not really the norm for Vegas and we all hope it doesn't become the norm.

Rob Mack

Wolfgang S. wrote on 7/5/2008, 1:38 AM

"Peter Wright was nice enough to send the black frame test file to me again. It is a very nice file because it gives me two black frames in the same place every time."

Have found the link to the file in the other thread - but on my system, I do not see any black frames.

Wound somebody else be willing to share a link where he can upload some short m2t material showing red or black frames?

marks27 wrote on 7/5/2008, 3:42 AM

I am the same: I downloaded the file, ran it in Vegas 8B. not a problem. Preview, render, all works fine for me.

marks

Wolfgang S. wrote on 7/5/2008, 4:02 AM

So, we have mixed findings here fore sure. Some of us have the problem, others maybe not.

But if somebody would be able to upload a short m2t file, that shows that error, I would really like to test that.

Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/5/2008, 6:02 AM

John_Cline said:

I had forgotten about that issue - OMG what a waste of time!!!

So here I am - AGAIN - at 6am capturing the tape for the 5th time - this time around I'm using HDVSplit but doing a full capture from tape first with no scene detection. I'm going to run iHDVSplits scene detection on the captured master m2t and hope it goes well - that way I still have a hopefully untainted master capture if need be.

John's right - Vegas has spoiled me as well - I gotta get this to work - I'm normally very productive in Vegas - this one project has brought to light all that everyone else has raised issues about.

You'd think this project was jinxed.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com

Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/5/2008, 7:41 AM

Well it worked!!!

Capturing the tape with no scene detect with HDVSplit seemed to resolve the issue. I was able replace the m2t file in the project file and there were no issues. Currently rendering out an mpg for DVDA - I can finally put this thing to bed.

One thing I do appreciate is Vegas pegging both cores to 100% while rendering out this mpeg file.

I've learned alot from this experience.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com

johnmeyer wrote on 7/5/2008, 9:44 AM

Doing the capture over and over (even though it apparently is working the 5th time around) doesn't seem like the best approach to getting your work done quickly. Did you purchase Cineform? It would seem like you could get your work finished a lot faster by converting to intermediates and doing all your work on those. For the price of a big external to hold the intermediates and the price of Cineform (about $300 total) it seems like you could get rid of the problem and get much faster timeline performance as well.

Or are you already doing that?

Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/5/2008, 10:05 AM

I've debated the issue on it - When I downloaded the trial - I watched my 2x160GB Raid0 get taken up by over 50% of space just for this one project. Add to that the other projects on this raid and I was running out of space real fast.

So my question is then - for working with the kinds of work I do - is a raid really necessary when working with Vegas and Cineform Neo??? I don't do multicam, I only do cuts, dissolves, basic titling and color correction. If I could work with a single 750GB sata drive to edit with, that would be great.

Removing the raid out of the equation would make Neo more attractive right now - I just can't afford any more expensive equipment after purchasing all my audio for video gear - more money going out then coming in right now.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com