HD Newbie Question

Rob-Candlelght Prductions wrote on 3/2/2008, 10:10 PM

I"ve been shooting SD video for many years using Sony and Canon Prosumer cams. I recently shot with a SONY CMOS "HD" camera (in SD mode) and was amazed to see the CMOS color and image quality as good as the 3CCD cams.. wow!

OK.. my few questions.

(1) Since I'm rendering to MPEG2/DVD 720x480, would it be accurate to say that playing my DVD on an HD TV will still benefit from the HD capabilities on the TV (since a regular TV is like.. what.. 320x240?)?

(2) If I shot with HD cameras and edited in Vegas, could my project be burned to a regular DVD-R, and played on a regular DVD player, displayed on an HD TV?

(3) Would my client(s) need a specialized player to play my HD DVDs?

Thanks so much for these high-level questions.. a redirect to a FAQ with this info. is fine too... but I sure could use a few pointers here to get me going.

Thanks!
--Rob

Comments

John_Cline wrote on 3/3/2008, 12:52 AM

1) First of all, a regular SD TV is not 320x240. Generally speaking, an SD TV can easily display a 720x480 signal. HDTVs typically come in two native resolution flavors, "Full HD" which is 1920x1080 and "Mostly" HD, which is usually 1366x768. An HDTV can upscale 720x480 SD to its native resolution, but you can't make something out of nothing and your video will still have the same amount of resolution it had at 720x480.

2) Standard DVD players can't play HD material at HD resolutions. You can, of course, display regular DVDs on an HDTV, but it's not going to be HD.

3) Authoring and burning a DVD in something like DVD Architect is SD only. There are several ways to deliver HD material that will display in true HD on an HDTV. The first way is to use third-party software to burn HD on a standard DVD-R and play it on an HD-DVD player, but since HD-DVD is now essentially dead, that doesn't make much sense. Another option is to use Vegas to make an AVCHD disc to a standard DVD-R and play it using most (but not all) Blu-Ray players. The third (and probably most universal) option is to buy a Blu-Ray burner and software like Adobe Encore CS3 and make "real" Blu-Ray HD discs that will play on most Blu-Ray players. All of these options would require your clients to invest in an HD disc player and an HDTV.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 3/3/2008, 3:48 AM

"Another option is to use Vegas to make an AVCHD disc to a standard DVD-R and play it using most (but not all) Blu-Ray players."

Take care, Vegas generates 002-BDMV structures, what is not exaclty the same as 001-AVCHD-DVD structures. Yes, you can also burn a 002-BDMV structure to a DVD, but as you said very right: not every Blu Ray player will be able to play that.

CClub wrote on 3/3/2008, 4:23 AM

Of course, you can always tape in HDV, render via Vegas into HD WMV or other HD format, load onto a data DVD (or upload onto the web), and they can watch HD files via computer. I do this with all my clients' files and they love it that they have an HD file that they can show via projector, etc.

Steve Mann wrote on 3/3/2008, 1:46 PM

I think all the replies to the OP missed the question.

Yes, if you shoot in HDV and edit in SD and deliver an SD DVD, it will play just fine on either an SD or HD TV. The video won't be HD, but it will look much better than if you started with SD video.

Rob-Candlelght Prductions wrote on 3/3/2008, 5:19 PM

If the final render is MPEG-2 for an AD DVD (DVDA format), assembled and burned with DVDA, why would the image look better than if I started with SD video?

If my SD cameras are excellent cameras, and I edit with the uncompressed DV source material.. what benefit would the source HD footage be giving me to improve the final picture?

Rob-Candlelght Prductions wrote on 3/3/2008, 5:21 PM

"Authoring and burning a DVD in something like DVD Architect is SD only"

I get most of what you're saying (thanks), but not that comment. I thought that Vegas could edit HD source and render HD output. What aspect of it makes it so I couldn't create an HD/Bluray disc with DVD/A? What's it missing?

Rob-Candlelght Prductions wrote on 3/3/2008, 5:25 PM

Ultimately, how would you respond to a client who says "I'd like you to shoot my wedding using HD?" (keep in mind, I'll have to rent HD cameras too)

Chienworks wrote on 3/3/2008, 5:54 PM

The aspect of DVDA that makes it so that you can't create HD/Bluray discs is the simple fact that DVDA can't create HD/Bluray discs. DVDA is SD only.

michaelshive wrote on 4/24/2008, 6:01 PM

"Another option is to use Vegas to make an AVCHD disc to a standard DVD-R and play it using most (but not all) Blu-Ray players."

I haven't tried this yet which is why I ask. If I'm editing a 720P (30P) project in the Vegas timeline I can use the new "Burn to Blu-ray" option and it will burn a blu-ray disc to standard DVD-R? As DVD-R is only 4.7gb, how many minutes of AVCHD can you expect to fit on it?

Spot|DSE wrote on 4/24/2008, 6:07 PM

I'd respond with "Would you like me to shoot and deliver in HD, or merely shoot in HD and deliver for now, on a standard DVD?" If they need HD now, you have a lot of options, none of which are terribly expensive. Rental will be the bigger factor there, I'd think.

Konrad wrote on 4/24/2008, 6:21 PM

As of June 2008 the free DVDA 5 upgrade to DVDA 4.5(Vegas Pro 8) will burn HD content to both BR and DVD media. The DVD media is just limited to 4.7/8.5 GB of content.

SD DVD will play in DVD, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players. While not HD, the players with good upscaling make SD content look very good on a 1080/720 HDTVs. My answer is not theoretical I've got many HDTVs and HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray players.

johnmeyer wrote on 4/24/2008, 10:09 PM

If the final render is MPEG-2 for an AD DVD (DVDA format), assembled and burned with DVDA, why would the image look better than if I started with SD video?Two reasons:

1. When you shoot in higher resolution, when Vegas renders to the lower resolution, it can spend lots of time figuring out where to place each pixel in order to retain every last ounce of resolution. But, when you shoot in that resolution to begin with, the camera has no extra pixels with which to determine exactly how to approximate the higher resolution. Spot posted some great tests 2-3 years ago when HDV was first out, showing native SD output vs. HDV down-res'd to SD. The difference was substantial. Those tests may still be kicking around over at VASST.

2. HDV has a better color space than DV, so the colors look a LOT better.

Spot|DSE wrote on 4/24/2008, 10:24 PM

As we move from one site to another, I'm too lazy to try to find the specific comparison, but John's right...there is a huge difference. Even in print, these differences are tremendous, so in the colorplates of our newest book "The Full HD", I put prints of HD downconverted in-camera vs HD downconverted in NLE. Differences are significant, and I don't care how old you are...if you can't see it, you're just plain blind. ;-)

johnmeyer wrote on 4/24/2008, 10:45 PM

in the colorplates of our newest book "The Full HD", I put prints of HD downconverted in-camera vs HD downconverted in NLE. Differences are significant,

And an even more significant comparison, which is what the poster was asking about, would be to record directly to DV, using a Z1 or FX1, and compare that to the two options you mention above. Once it is shot in HDV, even if the camera does the downconvert, I think there is still going to be an improvement compared to shooting directly to DV. However, having said that, I haven't done the comparison, and maybe the in-camera downconvert from HDV will yield the same thing as recording directly to DV in the first place.

farss wrote on 4/25/2008, 1:15 AM

If you live in NTSC land you should notice quite an improvement editing HDV on a HD T/L and rendering direct to mpeg-2 compared to shooting DV or doing an in camera downconvert.

If you downconvert or shoot DV your chroma sampling is 4:1:1.
Doing it the other way you're sending 4:1.5:1.5 to the mpeg-2 encoder which is also 4:2:0. That's got to help but it doesn't end there.

The way chroma sampling is defined has opened a can of worms that gets exploited badly to fuel a lot of BS. What really matters is how many chroma samples there are i.e. at any point in the frame how accurately do you know what colour it is. HDV has a lot more chroma samples even though it's 4:2:0 than SD because those numbers are relative to the size of the frame.

When you downconvert, an uncompressed RGB frame is created by Vegas, then that is downscaled to SD and then that is encoded by the encoder and the chroma subsampling redone at that point. Other places you see a big performance improvement is with keying.

If you want to downconvert HDV to SD the best approach is to convert to a 4:2:2 codec such as the SonyYUV codec. Of course your file size will increase.

Bob.

johnmeyer wrote on 4/25/2008, 9:28 AM

If you want to downconvert HDV to SD the best approach is to convert to a 4:2:2 codec such as the SonyYUV codec.

But, I assume you wouldn't do this if you just wanted to create a DVD, right? If DVD is the final result, I don't think there would be any benefit to first converting to some intermediate and then rendering to SD MPEG-2. Instead (at least this is what I've been doing), I just render from the m2t (or Cineform intermediate) on the Vegas timeline directly to MPEG-2 using one of the DVD Architect templates.

Spot|DSE wrote on 4/25/2008, 9:43 AM

There is no benefit, IMO, in converting to 4:2:2 YUV SD for HDV ingest if the final output is to SD DVD, unless of course, the plan is to do a lot of compositing and color push before outputting the DVD. In almost all instances, I prefer to stay HD to the very last opportunity.

vitalforce wrote on 4/25/2008, 10:05 AM

<HDV has a lot more chroma samples even though it's 4:2:0 than SD because those numbers are relative to the size of the frame.>

NOW I get it. Thanks farss.

P.S. I'm sure it's been discussed before, but would capturing SDV to Sony YUV benefit the 'sample depth' rather than just copying from a DV camcorder onto the hard drive?

Spot|DSE wrote on 4/25/2008, 11:02 AM

but would capturing SDV to Sony YUV benefit the 'sample depth' rather than just copying from a DV camcorder onto the hard drive?

Depends on the interface/hardware. In analog capture over component to an 8 or 10 bit file, some nice things sometimes occur in chroma smoothing vs the DV stream over firewire (which is a bit for bit clone of the recorded tape)

Terry Esslinger wrote on 4/25/2008, 11:05 AM

Sorry to go just a bit off topic here:
I acquire HD with fx1. Capture and edit in Vegas as m2t.
Now my questuion: I am one of those dolts that bought into and acquired a Toshiba HD DVD player. I have a 1080i Mitsubishi RP CRT HDTV. What are my options (if any) to record an HD DVD to play on my HD DVD player? Yea I know most other people will not be able to play it with their BR but hey I bought the HD player I'd like to use it. (It does play SD DVDs uprezed very nicely).
Thanks for any information.