HDV Timeline Woes...

jrazz wrote on 5/3/2006, 8:12 PM

Okay, I know that it is a known fact that you cannot clutter up the timeline with HDV clips or it will crash. My question is why.
I want to to use hdv split to help distinguish between the cips captured (making a baseball highlight vid with tons of small clips in HDV). I know that I can capture to 1 file and place that on the timeline, but why the difference when I take the same footage and cut it up before putting it on the timeline?

I don't know if this makes any difference but here is the error message I get:
Sony Vegas 6.0
Version 6.0d (Build 210)
Exception 0xC0000005 (access violation) READ:0x0 IP:0x6E51B0
In Module 'vegas60.exe' at Address 0x400000 + 0x2E51B0
Thread: GUI ID=0xB20 Stack=0x12F000-0x130000
Registers:
EAX=00000000 CS=001b EIP=006e51b0 EFLGS=00010206
EBX=08387488 SS=0023 ESP=0012fcb0 EBP=0012fdc8
ECX=2c3d27d8 DS=0023 ESI=2c3d2800 FS=003b
EDX=00000000 ES=0023 EDI=00000000 GS=0000
Bytes at CS:EIP:
006E51B0: FF 10 8B F8 85 FF 7C 15 ......|.
006E51B8: 83 3E 00 74 10 8B 0E 8B .>.t....
Stack Dump:
0012FCB0: 08387488 07FB0000 + 3D7488
0012FCB4: 008A493C 00400000 + 4A493C (vegas60.exe)
0012FCB8: 2C3D2800 2B8A0000 + B32800
0012FCBC: 00000000
0012FCC0: 2C525228 2B8A0000 + C85228
0012FCC4: 00000000
0012FCC8: 0044CFC3 00400000 + 4CFC3 (vegas60.exe)
0012FCCC: 2C525344 2B8A0000 + C85344
0012FCD0: 00000000
0012FCD4: 00000057
0012FCD8: 0068E7FD 00400000 + 28E7FD (vegas60.exe)
0012FCDC: 2C525228 2B8A0000 + C85228
0012FCE0: 00000000
0012FCE4: 00166718 00140000 + 26718
0012FCE8: 0819B480 07FB0000 + 1EB480
0012FCEC: 00000020
> 0012FD50: 77D48734 77D40000 + 8734 (USER32.dll)
> 0012FD7C: 77D48BD9 77D40000 + 8BD9 (USER32.dll)
> 0012FDCC: 00677954 00400000 + 277954 (vegas60.exe)
0012FDD0: 00166718 00140000 + 26718
0012FDD4: 00000000
0012FDD8: 0001008C 00010000 + 8C
0012FDDC: 00010000 00010000 + 0
> 0012FE04: 77D489EA 77D40000 + 89EA (USER32.dll)
> 0012FE10: 0067F13D 00400000 + 27F13D (vegas60.exe)
> 0012FE14: 00671D8F 00400000 + 271D8F (vegas60.exe)
- - -
0012FFF0: 00000000
0012FFF4: 00000000
0012FFF8: 00890D1C 00400000 + 490D1C (vegas60.exe)
0012FFFC: 00000000

My system specs are accurate.

j razz

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Comments

riredale wrote on 5/9/2006, 2:57 PM

With Vegas6 you don't need to put your m2t files on the timeline to make Cineform intermediates--use GearShift to do the conversion. Just list your numerous m2t files in the "Source files" window on the left of GearShift, then choose "HDV 1080i-60 intermediate" in the HD Media drop-down box. Then hit OK at the bottom. GearShift will create all the Cineform intermediates without having to manually put them on the Vegas timeline.

I save steps by creating both a DV proxy and a Cineform Intermediate with GearShift at the same time. Then I toss the m2t files, and can GearShift between proxy and intermediate at my leisure.

It would be hard to imagine HDVSplit not cutting cleanly. By definition, each HDV clip on a tape begins with an I frame. I would assume that the camera makes sure a complete GOP is written to tape before stopping, so each clip is a complete package all by itself. All HDVSplit does is to pull apart the clips based on embedded timecode.

MH_Stevens wrote on 5/9/2006, 3:18 PM

I think jrazz didn't want to buy any additional software such as GearShift, but as I said way back, GearShift is a good and cheaper way to go. It will not split scenes like Cineform does perfectly and cleanly. There is one issue not often aired here, but unless things have changed, CineForm used a better codex than Vegas. Maybe Spot will update us.

Michael

mbryant wrote on 5/10/2006, 1:05 AM

Interesting, and probably unrelated, but in another thread I've posted that I get crashes trying to create either a Cineform intermediate or a proxy with Gearshift based on using the Vegas internal capture (no scene splitting). The crashes have caused reboots so I have been unable to see what error was reported (if any).

So I am going to try and re-do the capture with HDVsplit... ironic that the advice in this thread is to not use HDVsplit...

Mark

john-beale wrote on 5/10/2006, 9:15 AM

Marc at Sony Support wrote back again, ignoring each specific question I asked. Sounds like they don't care if it crashes when you edit m2t, because you're not supposed to be doing that in the first place.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Vegas 6d crashes with HDV .m2t on timeline
---------------------------------------------------------------
Response (Marc S.) - 05/10/2006 09:47 AM
Hi John,

Thanks for writing back. I was reading over your original submission and don't see any mention of rendering the .m2t files to the intermediate codec. You should be aware that we strongly recommend rendering the .m2t files to the intermediate codec for easier editing and better preview.

You can do this by going to File > Render As. Choose Windows for Video (.AVI), then click the Custom button, then the Video tab, and changing the Video Format to Cineform. Press Apply and OK to start the render.

Please try this workflow in your next project and share your results with me.

Sincerely,

Marc S.
Technical Support
Sony Media Software
1617 Sherman Ave.
Madison, WI 53704
http://www.sony.com/mediasoftware
http://www.acidplanet.com

Customer (John Beale) - 05/08/2006 11:46 AM
Thank you for your reply, but unfortunately it did not help.

Vegas 6d still crashes even when I do not have any other processes running. My PC is in a cool area and Vegas 6d (and all my other software) runs stably on it, with processors showing full usage, for hours at a time doing any task EXCEPT for timelines with many small HDV .m2t files on it. I am using WinXP with auto-update and it is the latest version. My drivers are all recent but I can't see how that could be the problem: Vegas can edit, play back and render audio and video from DV, DVD VOBs (MPEG2), and HDV-Intermediate just fine on my system. Is there any hardware driver that is used in a different way when editing or playing back HDV .m2t files?

My disk drives have plenty of space free and are only somewhat fragmented. Defragmenting can improve performance, but I believe filesystem fragmentation cannot cause a crash unless the program (or WinXP) has a bug. If you have any examples to the contrary I would be interested to hear about it.

Is it Sony's position that Vegas 6d can play back and render a full project, without crashing, on a timeline with many small HDV .m2t files on it? How has Sony tested this? More generally, are you aware of anyone who has done this sucessfully? From the Sony Vegas user forum, I have found several people who say it doesn't work, many people who advise against it, and no one who says it does work. I appreciate your further reply.
-------------------------------------------------

MH_Stevens wrote on 5/10/2006, 12:07 PM

To be fair to SONY Vegas6 is a pro semi-pro production tool. Anyone using it to produce an HDV project will likely have several tracks, effects, transitions etc and will need to see a real-time preview on their monitor. You just CAN NOT DO THAT with m2ts on the timeline! Period. With a simple one track show you can after a fashion use Vegas but SONY isn't set up for people doing that.

Let me promise you, even if your m2ts had not crashed and you had got them on the time line you would not be able to control transitions or even preview or color correct your work and you certainly would not be able to preview it.

For HDV Vegas is made to use the intermediaries and I'm sure SONY think you are wasting there time, but more importantly, I think you are wasting YOUR time. Just do it as advised for now. Hopefully in September things will be easier.

Michael

jrazz wrote on 5/10/2006, 12:28 PM

...I'm sure SONY think you are wasting there time, but more importantly,

Pretty strong statement Michael. I'm not looking for an argument, but I would have to dissagree with the first part of the above (can't say much about the second as that is your opinion- although I can't see how that is more important than the former).

If no one ever reports any problems/issues/wants/desires they have with the product they are using to the product's maker- then the engineers are in the dark when it comes to real world users. Sure, they have beta testers and control groups- but that can never do away with the real world user.
A perfect example- the halo plugin posted on here a couple of days ago- there was in issue with generated media and the effect causing ever increasing darkness until the generated media could not be seen. It was addressed to the manufacturer- they joined the forum and said that it had slipped by them and now it has been fixed. They had beta testers, but until the company realized there was an issue when it was used with real world users by it being reported to them, they could not fix it or offer up an explanation on why it didn't work. It was fixed in less than 6 hours.
That is the type of service Sony would do well to learn from. Even if they cannot fix it in 6 hours, they should at least address the issue at hand.

As for using intermediaries- I don't know who that was pointed at, but I haven't read of anyone trying to edit m2t files except for you. You are the only one on this thread that said you were editing m2t files. I guess I could have overlooked it. I myself am using the intermediary template and again, the issue I am having is with multiple m2t files on the timeline to convert to intermediaries. I don't know who your middle paragraph is directed towards as again, I don't know who besides you stated that they are editing m2t files.

I'm not trying to come across being sarcastic- I just don't understand your post.

j razz

MH_Stevens wrote on 5/10/2006, 3:05 PM

jrazz:
Yes my last post was a
little hasty and i did not phrase things well. Like the politicians say I did not mean what I said I just made an error of judgement in how I phrased it.

If you have not used CineForm the advantage of it is that it converts the m2t file to an intermediary on the fly and only the intermedairy gets into Vegas. I am remembering now that when I tested GearShift it is necessary to capture the m2ts first. Why did you split the m2t into little bit BEFORE you converted it to the intermedairy? I'm sure your problem is there. When I used GearShift I download many m2ts but straight from the camera. Where and how does HDVSplit do its thing? Within Vegas or before.

What I said re SONY is that they are set up to deal with normal procedures and maybe your HDVSliping has no standard preformatted reply. When i said you were wasting your time i said it out of empathy for you not imply you were doing something silly but I see now how it could sound that way. I know from my own messing around that sometimes we stick with a problem as a challenge when its best to just do it another way.

I'm sure if you capture the m2t intact and convert it before you cut and scrap what you didn't want it will be fine.

jrazz wrote on 5/10/2006, 3:20 PM

Michael,
Thanks for the clarification. The reason I want to split the file is b/c I am making a highlight video. I have an 83 minute tape that has over 100 something clips on it give or take some. My reason for using HDV Split is so I don't manually have to find all the clips again and split them.

From there, I put everything on the timeline that would go and converted to an intermediary. No cutting, no corrections no nothing, save markers so when it does get converted, the markers stay so I can easily know where the clips start and end.

Now, I did get this to work, I just had to make a part A file and a part B file. If I split the contents of the veg file in half, it rendered great- no problems. When I went back and captured without splits using HDV Split (just one big file) I had no problems either.
This was no big deal as I am only using a small percentage of all the clips and did not need all of the footage on the timeline. It is just perplexing to me that I can't put all the footage I want on the timeline without it crashing.

j razz