HDV to SD DVD with VMS&DVDA

Kimberly wrote on 10/5/2009, 9:01 AM
Hello All:

I am using VMS 9.0b Platinum Pro. I am shooting on a North American version (NTSC) Sony HDR-HC3. In the past I was shooting in SD 16.9. Recently I have started experimenting with 1080i 16.9, which is what my camera gives me. My HDV footage imports into VMS in an .M2T file and this process seems to work fine.

I've been using VMS since April 2009 to produce weekly videos of scuba diving tourists. My objective is to get divers swimming around, divers with fish, marine life, etc. Hence there is almost constrant movement in every shot.

I have been delivering SD DVDs to my guests and must continue in that format (not all guests have an HD TV at this time). But I would like to start filming in HDV to take advantage of the higher quality image and build an HDV libary for the day when everyone does have an HD TV.

I'm using DVD Architect Studio 4.50d that came with VMS Platinum Pro to create DVDs with titles, chapters, etc. The DVDs run about 35 minutes. There are 5-6 segments with topside and diving activities set to music. Each segment runs 3-8 minutes. I have been rendering each 3-8 minute segment separately in VMS and then bring it into DVDA for DVD creation.

Sooooooo here is my problem.

1. Like others before me, I am seeing a lot of horizontal squiggley lines (interlacing?) in my HDV rendered to SD when the subject has movement. This is true whether I render from VMS and watch it on my computer or whether I take that render, burn a DVD with DVDA and watch it on my non-HD TV.

My old SD renders look better than my HDV to SD renders in terms of the hortizontal squiggley lines. However the HDV to SD renders that do not have much subject movement look great! Alas, virtually all underwater footage has movement so I need to solve this problem.

2. I've read a lot of Eugenia's blogs and experimented with many of her suggestions, and I've read the Vega Pro forum and tried some of those suggestions. No matter what I do, the horizontal squigglies persist. I am missing something.

3. Here are my project settings for video:
Match Project Media
Wdith 1440
Height 1080
Field Order: Upper Field First
Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1.3333 (HDV-1080)
Frame Rate: 29.970 (NTSC)
Full Resolution Rendering: Best
Deinterlace Method: Interpolate Fields

4. As for the VMS rendering settings, I am clueless when working with HDV. I've tried .AVI with different templates. I've trieg .m2t, WMV, .mpg, and so on, all with different templates. I've tried the formats that allow the "custom" settings and played with those settings. I cannot get the HDV renders without the squiggley lines, and in some cases the HDV to SD renders don't look as good as my old SD renders in terms of overall clarity.

What am I missing? I am still a a newbie so any theory is a good one at this point. VMS is great product and I've really enjoyed working with it, but this is driving me crazy!

Kimberly

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 10/5/2009, 11:22 AM
Can you upload a couple of clips somewhere?
1) Your raw captured footage.
2) Your rendered video.

Even 10 sec. of each would be useful.
Kimberly wrote on 10/5/2009, 12:48 PM
Hi Musicvid:

Thanks for your response!

Where should I upload them? Is there an option on this forum for that, or something I would do externally such as YouTube. I have never used YouTube but I could try that.

Also, what settings do you recommend for the render?

Kimberly
musicvid10 wrote on 10/5/2009, 6:37 PM
As I said, we would need the raw footage and the rendered video in their native formats, and not transcoded by YouTube or another online viewing service.

In other words, we want to download the original video clips, not view them online. There is quite a difference.

If you have a web site, upload the clips (again, they could be as short as 10 seconds) via ftp in binary mode, and post a link here.

If you do not have a web site, then use an upload service like Photobucket or any of many others.

Unfortunately, Sony does not provide a means to upload files directly to the forums.
Markk655 wrote on 10/5/2009, 7:38 PM
Kimberley,

Mediafire is free and allows sizeable downloads.

http://www.mediafire.com/

Quick question...did you try the do not interpolate setting for interlacing? Do you see the lines after render or after burn (use of DVD Architect)?
Kimberly wrote on 10/6/2009, 8:25 AM
Mark655:

I have tried both Interpolate and Blend. Same results. One thing I did not mention is that I see the squiggley lines (motion artifacts?) on the non-edited .m2t footage from the camcorder. This occurs when I view it in VMS or in Windows Medica Player.

Kimberly
Kimberly wrote on 10/6/2009, 8:42 AM
Here is a short clip of the .m2t file straight from the Sony HDR-HD3. This is a topside clip as I am on vacation from my scuba job. I picked ducks at the local pond because I wanted to see how well the color, definition, and movement would show.

http://www.mediafire.com/?a44neytdcio

I will do a couple of renders and post them too. Thanks for evaluating!
Kimberly wrote on 10/6/2009, 8:44 AM
Musicvid:

Here is where I posted the raw captured footage:

http://www.mediafire.com/?a44neytdcio

I will do a couple of renders and post them.
Markk655 wrote on 10/7/2009, 5:21 PM
If you see it in the raw file, it really isn't a VMS issue then.

I don't see the squiggly lines, unles syou are referring to the wavy lines on the grass at the top right of the frame at 5-8 seconds. I think those are actually relections from the water onto the grass.

It is very difficult to avoid compression artefactswhen shooting grass or water due to the complexity of movement and detail.

I looked back at your original post. You mentioned the problem was worse in SD-converted footage. The file you uploaded was HDV. Did you want to show the difference & upload the SD file?
Kimberly wrote on 10/8/2009, 12:37 PM
Thanks Markk655.

The clip that I posted was HD. I am not viewing it with an HD system, so I see a few squiggles when there is motion.

Essentially I feel as if I am losing quality (or gaining motion artifacts) when I render to SD for use on an SD DVD. I know there will be quality loss because SD is not HD. My biggest concern is the motion squiggles when I pan or when there is fast subject moving in front of a still camcorder.

I'm looking for the optimal settings for rendering HD footage for use on an SD DVD. Eugenia posted some on her blog but those pertained to Vegas Pro. I'm looking for the same advice for Movie Studio.

Thanks for reading!

Kimberly
Eugenia wrote on 10/8/2009, 3:18 PM
My export tutorial is for both Platinum and Pro. However, if you just want to export for DVD, you don't use that tutorial. You simply export using one of the available mpeg2 templates, and AC3 for audio -- and then DVD Architect does the rest.
musicvid10 wrote on 10/8/2009, 6:23 PM
Kimberly,
I suspect you are seeing the normal effects of interlacing when the rendered clips are played on your computer screen. As has been explained before, this is because computer monitors are progressive, and the horizontal lines will not show up when played on a DVD.

I have rendered your file for DVD playback using the Vegas DVDA templates, and a number of other means, and I see absolutely nothing out of the ordinary. Your footage is especially good, and will make a very good SD DVD. Just be sure to use the proper template, and set your rendering quality to "Best."
Kimberly wrote on 10/9/2009, 9:01 AM
Thanks Musicvid!

Regarding the Template, I believe I need to use the "DVD Architect NTSC Widescreen video stream" template. (I realize I will need to render the audio separately with this template.)

If I select the above template, Movie Studio defaults to Main Concept MPEG-2 for the file save-as format. I can select other save-as formats, but Movie Studie then gives other options for the template. This is where I get confused.

Thanks again for your help.

Kimberly
musicvid10 wrote on 10/9/2009, 9:07 AM
1) Yes, that is the correct template.
2) Yes, the correct way to save the audio is with the AC-3 DVD stereo template. Keep the file name the same (except for the extension) and it will load automatically.
3) Yes, MPEG-2 is the only format that can be used for standard DVDs. That is the same format as your .m2t camera files. As you mentioned, you will lose quality from the added compression and downsizing to 720x480.

-- DVD Architect will accept a few other media types, but must then do a lengthy re-encode to convert them to MPEG-2. It will also want re-encode if your MPEG-2 file is too large to fit on a standard DVD. (Let us know if you run into the latter - there are workarounds).
Kimberly wrote on 10/9/2009, 8:29 PM
I made an SD DVD using the specs discussed above. I have but one comment:

Wow!

The video looks great for SD delivery. Many thanks to Musicvid and everyone else who took the time to reply to my questions.
musicvid10 wrote on 10/11/2009, 6:25 PM
Kimberly,
Your "Ducks" footage is such a good test of HD-to-SD comparisons, I would like your permission to use it for comparative purposes, and perhaps refer (link) to it with different render settings on these forums.

Since the guy above the legs is not identified, and since none of the ducks are being called by name (except for "Buddy"), I don't think model releases would be necessary.

The reason I have an interest in your footage, is because of the brown-green tones, stationary detail (in the grass), movement (both the ducks and the camera), and even a few blown whites, all of which are critical areas when converting from HD to SD and / or Interlaced to Progressive.

I have my first comparison ready to put up, but as a professional, I feel a need to ask your permission first . . .

Thanks, musicvid
Markk655 wrote on 10/11/2009, 7:12 PM
Musicvid,

I am interested to see how this works out. Now I understand why you were looking for the templates in the other thread...Are you also planning a similar comparison for m2ts HD files?
Kimberly wrote on 10/13/2009, 8:56 PM
Hello Musicvid:

Sorry I did not notice your request to use the "Ducks" footage earlier. Yes, you are welcome to use it.

The Ducks work cheap and I like to film them for practice because their colors are vivid and their movement is unpredictable -- much like the marine life that I film for real when I am working.

Kim
musicvid10 wrote on 10/14/2009, 8:09 AM
Thanks,
I am doing comparisons of YouTube HD and using MP4 / FLV on site in JW Player.
I'll post a link (with credit to you of course) when they are up.