Help me pick out a hard drive PLEASE.

fallrecords wrote on 1/21/2003, 1:34 PM
Hey.. I am looking for a hard drive so I can edit video.. I have a labtop so it needs to be external. Here is one I found.. and I was wondering if it would work well for my uses.. ANY FEEDBACK WOULD BE VERY HELPFUL.. ALSO feel free to make other suggestions..

Maxtor OneTouch 80.0GB External USB 2.0 Hard Drive
Model: R01J080
>PRODUCT FEATURES
>>Up to 80.0GB capacity
>>High-speed USB 2.0 interface (backward compatible with USB 1.1)
>><12 ms average seek time
>>7200 rpm spindle speed for fast read/write capabilities
>>2MB cache buffer
>>USB 2.0 maximum data transfer rate up to 480 Mbps
>>Just push a button to make back-up copies of files
>>Flexible add-on storage for home or office
>>Compact design sits vertically or horizontally
>>PC or Mac compatible

Comments

Grazie wrote on 1/22/2003, 4:46 AM
Hiyah!

All external Maxtor firewire drives here:-
1 x 60gb
1 x 80gb
2 X 120 gb ONE TOUCH [ of course both with the USB 2.0 facility, whihc I don't use ]

All are daisey chained together.

There is one major caveat to all this firewire stuff you need to understand - I learnt after some head banging. Windows does know how to "arrange" "assign" more than one ext f/w drive - yes? It will take the first ext f/w drive it sees and assign it the next available drive letter - yes? Of course this becomes ever more relevant if you should bolt on an additional ext f/w beyond your single one you anticipate in getting. HOWEVER! If like me you have an undockable floppy drive [ A: ]which can be "swapped" with a CD-RW [ with me this comes back as is being designated as E: when I slide it in ] and the firewir drive is F: - if I should forget to set my machine up WITH the CD-RW back in place, VF will get confused. What this means is that any VF projects that I've created which have been told that the CD-RW is on drive "E:" AND the firewire drive was previously F: AND I leave the floppy drive in place, my firewire drive gets assigned the drive letter "E" instead! . . . Get the picture?

Put simply!:

Floppy Drive A: in place
A: Floppy Drive
C: - Onboard HD
D: - My on board AND permanently assigened DVD player [ oops didn't tell you about this one did I!?]
E: - External MAXTOR firewire drive

BUT Floppy drive swapped with CD-RW module:

C: - Onboard HD
D: - My on board AND permanently assigened DVD player
E: - CD-RW module
F: - NOW my external MAXTOR firewire drive. This means the VF or VV projects which had been created WITH this setup don't get confused.

You can see MS has swapped the drive letters for the ext f/w drive around!

Soooo . . . as you would have made projects including this ext f/w drive as being, well whatever you did - "floppy in or CD-RW in", VF will look for the media files AND your capture folders according to where you told it to - yes? Meaning, however you set up your VF project THAT will be the drive assigment for the "recipe" for THAT project.

Right . . . now that I've got further ext f/w drives I have to be even more vigilant as to how I start working. If you should consider obtaining further ext f/w drives, you will have to "plug-in" these drives in the strictest of order - EACH AND EVERY TIME. The same issue here about assigning the drive letters. I've got in a real pickle with drives coming up with different "assigned" letters. I've now got each mains plug physically "labelled" with stick-ons on the plug tops which say "F:" ; "G"; "H" and finally "I". I use a completely separate 4 way mains electricty block for this job - AND NOT for anything else - yes?

Okay, now that I've got this in place - quite easy now, honest! - before I start a VF or VV session I confirm:

1 - CD-RW is docked - floppy out
2 - Plug in the maxtors F: thru I: - waiting for each drive to get up to speed before I plug in the next - TIP here: I have WIN Explorer open just to confirm all is correct, by seeing the drives appear in sequential order.
3 - If I need to use my cammy, I make sure it is plugged into the Dell 4-pin OCHI video qualified port and then switch on - Again I can see the cammy appear as DV Camera #3 in WinExplorer

THEN and ONLY then do I open VF or VV, and settle down for a "quiet" NLE sessions. I reckon I've earnt it!

Apologies for this long winded feedback, but I wouldn't want you to struggle in the way I did. AND if you know this already . . . well . . . others will be reading this who maybe considering to go our external f/w route.

I must say, after an initial "drive initialisation" issue, which required the assistance of a MAxtor techie, my NLE and f/w system appears to be holding out.

One last thing. I do not use any of the one-touch backup facilty as I use the Maxtors for real time capture and render. I'm a bit shy of confusing the issues any further by imposing a further level of "potential" misunderstanding between the OS and the externals and VF or VV - yes? I'm sure the One-Touch solutions are great for those needing to do a major backup to a f/w drive, without the hassles of selecting new or updated files - yes? For me, they are used, as I have implied - basically as online HD Donkeys!

Finally . . .

I stack 'em on top of each other - maximum suggested height is 3 high - here, only 2 high, and leave a good air gap. They do heat up.
I don't use USB 2.0 - I keep to f/w. I haven't seen any USB 2.0 comments on the plusses and minuses of this wortking with NLE work - yes? I've stuck with what I know works - firewire in and out and daisey chained.

The 2mb cache buffer is appearing to work for me.

Can't think I can add any more than saying they work for me AND on WinME!

I'll tell you what! When you've got it up and running, you won't know you're born - they are good.

AND FInally . .. Finally. My best advice AND if you can afford the cash, would be to go to a 120gb. This NLE stuff gobbles up HD space at an alarming rate. The other thing is that although it will be specified as being 80gb, this gets knocked back to something like 72gb when seen on WinME. FYI my 120gb's appear as 111gb - yeah? So think on. This is a case " For More IS More! "

Have fun

Grazie
DGrob wrote on 1/22/2003, 11:16 AM
Amen to Grazie's comments. Just added my first external to an Inspiron 8200 running XP. Used a Belkin PCM card bus to gain two 6-pin firewire ports, plugged in the Maxtor 120GB 7200 rpm, and took off running without a hitch.

Grazie, your comment about the removable drives and the OS reorganizing drive designations is very interesting. I'll keep an eye out for that one for sure!

Elk burgers tonight! Stop on by. Grob
Grazie wrote on 1/22/2003, 11:36 AM
Mmmmh Elk burgers - MY FLAVOURITE!

Now if you're getting reeeaallly serious about GAME - howzabout Kudu or Water Buffalo or Ostrich or Guinea Fowl. But, yes I'll bring the beers! 'bout 7:30pm? Same place? ooooh bring on those sSpring/Summer nights with those BBQs and those starlit skies - oooohhh yes please - fed up with these cold grey rainey London skies.

Oh yes, just got my Boerwurst for Sunday night's Super Bowl - GO RAIDERS! GO RAIDERS! Last time was in 1984 - I remember it well. Oh yes, we have, if small and select, a passionate limey following for this "soft" sport. Try Rugby, similar to Am Football without the padding! Yes?

Anyways . . .. enjoy the Elkies,

Grazie
DGrob wrote on 1/22/2003, 2:30 PM
Waza Kudu? Even more importantly, waza Kudu do? It sounds like some sort of puddin', or perhaps the background vocal refrain from Winni the Poo.
Hey (fallrecords), any progress on picking your x-drive?? Are we helpin' you out here?

I have GOT to get a hobby. Grob
Grazie wrote on 1/22/2003, 3:27 PM
How does the song go - "Kudu something to me . . . "

The Kudu OR the Tragelaphus strepsiceros

. . . anyways ;-)

http://www.ultimateungulate.com/greatkudu.html

And see this majestic beast

Oh yes hows the "Drive" drive going Fallrecords? - Grob and I thought we would fill in the time while you where earning some money for your Maxtor . . .

Grazie

ps: Grob, you gotta hobby! You gotta a profession, if you hack this NLE stuff. It's a lot of fun, you get to film some really odd moments in history AND you get to talk to sane intellectuals . . . like . . . . like . . . me [he he ;) ]
IanG wrote on 1/23/2003, 2:43 AM
I'm struggling to find numbers, but I think you'd have a problem with this drive if your PC has USB 1 rather than 2. The transfer rates are probably too slow for video work.

Ian G.
Simmer wrote on 1/23/2003, 10:25 AM
IanG is correct so verify USB 2.0 support on your PC prior to purchase.
If using lap-top? not likely (unless someone has run across a PCMCIA to USB 2.0 card. Unless manufacturers are now installing USB 2.0 support on laptops. Hmmmm. Havn't seen this yet).

This is the scoop...

1) No Win OS as of yet supports native USB 2.0. You must load drivers.
2) In order to enjoy USB 2.0 speeds, your PC must have installed a USB 2.0 compatible PCI (or built-in) EHCI (Enhanced Host Controller Interface) controller.
If not, then you will only enjoy USB 1.1 speeds which, I don't believe, can
support speeds sufficent for Video capture (or at least to the capacity that we
usually desire in this field) :-)

1394 ------------------- Spected at 400Mbs (or 50MBs) Native support from, I believe, ME and up.
USB 2.0 (High speed) --- Spected at 480Mbs (or 60MBs)
USB 1.1 (Full speed) --- Spected at 12Mbs (or 1.5MBs)
USB 1.1 (Low speed) --- Spected at 1.5Mbs (or 0.19MBs)

Also, I'd try to go at least 120Gig. I can easily fill up my NTFS 120Gig with 3 or 4 AVIs.

See yu

-Mike
DGrob wrote on 1/23/2003, 10:53 AM
Mike is exactly right re USB 1.1. USB 2.0 is 40 times faster. Belkin does make a PCI card that supplies both a couple of firewire ports and USB 2.0, but not for laptops. I looked into this on Dell's forums and a couple of others just a few weeks ago. Went with the firewire. Grob
DGrob wrote on 1/23/2003, 10:56 AM
Oh, of course. Tragelaphus strepsiceros. Wonderful beast. A couple down my road had one a few years back. Had to get rid of it though, couldn't afford the pet door. Grob
fallrecords wrote on 1/23/2003, 2:18 PM
OK.. I am new at this but I think I got what everyone is saying.. THANKS A LOT for all of the advice.

I think i'll stick with the 80G for now.. and i can always add more later. I just want to make sure I have everything right. I have an Inspiron 4100 Dell. so I need to use Firewire to get the capture at the fastest possible speed? And also the Drive I listed will work then right? Also if you know of any good 120 or other 80G please feel free to leave some links to them..

Thanks a lot. once again. hopefully i'll be getting a drive for my b-day on the 7th. then i'll be happy.

discdude wrote on 1/23/2003, 3:33 PM
Just to chime in:

Looking at the system specs for a Dell Inspiron 4100, I see that it has neither USB 2.0 nor Firewire ports. Therefore, you have to buy some sort of adapter if you want any kind of speed. Look for a Firewire and/or USB 2.0 adapter that fits in your "Cardbus" (aka PC Card) slot.

So which one should you buy?

Firewire
Pros: Faster, no drivers needed if you have Windows 98SE or above.
Cons: More expensive, Firewire "800" (Mbs) is just around the corner.

USB 2.0
Pros: Cheaper, faster on paper, soon to be found on every new computer.
Cons: Drivers are needed if you have Windows 2000 or below. Not as fast as Firewire in actual practice.

You COULD buy that Maxtor you want and it will work, albeit at slow USB 1.1 speeds, which is not suited for video use at all. Personally, I think both will be prevalent in the future (kinda like how serial and parallel ports coexisted for many years) but Firewire will be the one used for video.
discdude wrote on 1/23/2003, 3:42 PM
As a companion to my earlier post, here is a press release from Oxford Semiconductors, makers of the chips that are at the heart of many of the external HDs.

http://www.oxsemi.com/press/may02/index.html

As you can see, their new chip supports the newer faster Firewire as well as USB 2.0. External HDs based on this new chipset will undoubtedly be more expensive to start than the current Firewire only or USB 2.0 only HDs though.
Grazie wrote on 1/23/2003, 4:39 PM
Ah - this is the first time you have mentioned the Dell model and number. I've got experience with the INspiron 8000. Grob can tell you his. Now then . . . my Inspiron CAME with a Dell 1394 Video Qualified 4-pin port. I have found this port to wok better than attempting to capture using one of the 6-pin firewire ports on any of the firewire drives OR the Maxtor 2xplug ports on the Maxtor PCMCIA card. My advise would be "confirm" with either Maxtor/Dell can capture video at the high rates that are required. Now, I could be wrong, but when I have attempted to capture via one of the 6-pin options I've had peculiar large pixel movements on the screen. Sooooo . . I've put my faith in the Dell Video qualified port 4-pin port, this works.

Oh yes, DOES your Dell Inspiron 4100 have a 4-pin video qualified port or not?

Grazie
DGrob wrote on 1/23/2003, 8:07 PM
Like Grazie (who saw me through some early difficulties with print to tape) my Dell I8200 also came with a 4-pin firewire. Like Grazie, I also capture and print to tape exclusively through that original 4-pin. Then the Belkin PCMCIA card adaptor provides 2 each 6-pin firewires which starts the daisy-chained external drives for raw capture and rendered project storage.

Perservere, it's worth the effort. Grob
discdude wrote on 1/23/2003, 9:16 PM
The only difference between the 4 pin Firewire and the 6 pin Firewire is that the 6 pin variety has 2 extra pins for power (power and ground actually).

I really don't have an explanation for why the Grazie's internal port works better than his Maxtor Cardbus adapter since (in theory) they should be identical in performance.
fallrecords wrote on 1/23/2003, 11:24 PM
The only input I have that it lists for this thing is 4-pin USB. this is what I would plug my camera into and my mouse... but is this only an input? but from what I am learning the USB wouldn't be fast enough anyways.. so is there anyway I can hook something up to my computer? I'm guessing I need to install some more hardware or something like that. Hopefully there is something i can do besides buying a new computer. since this one i haven't even had for a year yet.
Grazie wrote on 1/24/2003, 1:54 AM
From what I understand, USB 1.0 is not fast enough to cope with DV capture/PTT - yes?

Yes - Discdude - I know the extra 2 pins is for power, and yes, I too can't explain why plugging into the firewire system, on the PCMCIA firewire adaptor or straight into a firewire hard drive produces this "slithering" of video data. I intend to investigate this, either here, or the Vegas Forum or the Cow site. The really odd thing is that going "through" the 4-pin Dell Video qualified port does provide for consistent DV "flow" - yes?

Fallrecords - I would seriously research the ability of your Inspiron 4100 being able to do what you wish with DV activity. Firstly, I would scour the Internet for any hints that this HAS been done, successfully. Secondly, once you are convinced that this is so, establish beyond any doubt your notebook and its setup is up to the job by somehow finding a real world option to "test bed" your options. Maybe you could take your notebook to a specialsit in this field and test it. When I first considered taking this NLE stuff seriously, I spent much time getting the correct notebook to allow me to execute such work. This was 2 years ago. About 18 months back I plumbed for the Inspiron 8000, mostly because

1) - Was a Dell - I've had nothing but good experience with Dells, both in the public sector work I do and in other places AND, at least here in the UK the Customer service has been 1st rate

2) - I like the "positive" feel of the keyboard

3) - The actual "design & build" of the unit is fairly rugged - Necessary for a clutz like me!

4) - Plenty of ports for extras. PLus the 2xPCMCIA ports for "weird" cards to be inserted. PLUS the option for "docking" the whole thing in the docking station, allowing quick release AND still having all my printers and devices connected.

5) - AND finally, the Inspiron 8000, at that time, was the only laptop WITH the capabilities and features in the points 1) thru 4) PLUS what Dell was calling a "Video Studio Solution" - that sold it for me. I didn't feel comfortable with the Sony Vaio. For me, the "feel" of it was a bit to "light", Toshiba wasn't providing everything I wanted in one package and their keyboards don't suit me PLUS they were far to expensive for my budget.

Soooo . . . I researched long and hard before I upgraded from 8" DIGITAL -YES 8 INCH SCREEN! - screen notebook, to the Dell Inspiron 8000 I'm typing this on.

IMHO, whether you upgrade to a pc/laptop that you can be assured can give video editing options OR you can TRULY confirm your exsisting Inspiron 4100 can do this work, with all the necessary ports and PCMCIA options I have delineated - will be soemthing you will need to ascertain for yourself. If you can locate an individual that has an Inspiron 4100 and that is presently using the laptop for video work, see it being used for this - yes?

I've been "burnt" over the years by odd bits 'n pieces of pc stuff to know that prior rigorous research pays off. Oh yes, I remember writing a type of SWOT analysis of the "preferred" kit I was searching for. Basically, a "wish-list" of what I wanted it to do; what was other things would I need to purchase to do video work; what were the financial options; the tax breaks available to me; what after sales service was being offered; what experience I had of a package [Sony, Tosh, Dell etc etc] and finally what video capabilities it could provide. I then road-tested these models in many shops. And, much later, when I got the Dell, I was looking to upgrade my analogue cammy, I physically took my Inspiron to the camera shop AND plugged the Canon XM2 into the 4-pin port to confirm both devices would talk to each other.

I hope I've been constructive in my feedback. Adopt the carpenter's saying - "Measure twice - Cut once!" When it comes to IT procurement, Fallrecords, "Measure thrice - cut once!"

Hey, keep in touch - get on the Internet and share your findings. I'm sure others here will assist in "crawling" over your findings and will attempt to give you constructive feedback. - Think on!

Grazie
discdude wrote on 1/24/2003, 7:03 AM
Fallrecords,

If you want Firewire on your laptop, buy this:

http://www.adaptec.com/worldwide/product/proddetail.html?sess=no&language=English+US&prodkey=AFW-1430&cat=%2fTechnology%2fFireWire-1394%2fFireWire-1394+Adapters

and plug it in here (the port labeled "1"):

http://docs.us.dell.com/docs/systems/ins4100/tour38.jpg
DGrob wrote on 1/24/2003, 11:27 AM
Hey Grazie, are you using the 6-pin power option for your drives or the seperate external power plugs? Grob
Grazie wrote on 1/24/2003, 9:00 PM
Yes discdude, the PCMCIA slot is what I've got my MAXTOR firewire adaptor inserted in. I've not yet got such as good a capture/PTT through this, as I've got through the 4-pin Dell video qualified port.

Grob you've asked me, "are you using the 6-pin power option for your drives?", I'm using the 6-pin firewire - period! - I'm not really understanding your question, as yes, I'm using the external power supplies - without them the external hd discs would spin! - But I guess you must be speaking of something else.

Grazie
DGrob wrote on 1/25/2003, 10:49 AM
Grazie. I have the nagging suspicion I don't understand my question either. I'm wondering what the 2 other pins are for? Power and ground was my impression. Grob
Simmer wrote on 1/27/2003, 9:45 AM
Hi

The extra pins in 1394 you mention are Power and Ground.

I'm just pulled out a 1394 spec (ick!) and this is what it says (this is for the six pin):...
-------------------------------------------
Pin 1: VP -->> This is cable power
Pin 2: VG -->> This is Ground
Pins 3,4: TPB ->> Strobe on receive, data on transmit (differential pair)
Pins 5,6: TPA ->> Data on recieve, strobe on transmit (differential pair)
-------------------------------------------

The 4 pin connectors (usually used in lap tops where external current sourcing is
typically held to a minium), include the TPA and TPB signals. No power is supplied via the cable for these connectors. Devices using the four pin cables must be exteranlly powered.

See yu.

-Mike


DGrob wrote on 1/27/2003, 10:54 AM
Hmmm. I've been plugging my xternal into external power and connecting the firewire before powering up my laptop. Assuming plug and play, if I just connect firewire, when the OS needs to access the "E" drive it will power up and down as req'd??? Or does an adjustment need to be made in power management??? Thanks, Grob
fallrecords wrote on 1/27/2003, 2:08 PM
Thanks for the input everyone.. i think i will install that firewire that you reccomended discdude. and i'll let you know how everything works out. thanks again.