Help with Audio - "Tinny"

safrican wrote on 11/9/2011, 1:58 PM

Hi everyone. I realize that audio questions are not really vegas pro but since I am using that I figured I might ask and see if I can get some guidelines.

I have shot a couple of, what I like to think of as "Better than homevideo" shorts on cooking. The video is all HD and, at least to me, it is still amazing that I can create that quality as an enthusiast. The BD's are awesome, colors etc.

Anyway, I am struggling with the audio quality.

Brief set-up

Mic - Azden SGM-2X (Used as both shotgun and omni, similar results)
I also used a Sure PG58 with similar results. They all sound a little different but they all have the same traits. (tinny - not sure if that is a word)

Mixer is a Behringer MX602
Recorder - Zoom H2 (But have also recorded to my camera with worse results)

The audio sounds very tinny. I realize the kitchen has a lot of audio reflective surfaces and I am guessing that does not help.

Are there any filters / effects I can apply in VP to make it a little (warmer) or less tinny ?

*Edit* - Did not add, the audio is captured via a boom that is about 12-16 inches from the mouth at almost all times. Mic is slightly forward, pointing at the mouth.

Here is a sample of what I am referring to.

I also don't know if warmer is the right word, just looking to get it to be more of what you are used to hearing on TV I guess. Not sure if VP can do that or if I need to get Sound Forge involved. I do see a couple of effects just can't seem to get what I am looking for.

Any help is appreciated.

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 11/9/2011, 2:27 PM

Part of it is Kristen's age and voice-in-transition.
There is a lot of echo in the room too.

The workaround for #2 is to clip a lapel mic to her apron neckstrap. A-T makes an inexpensive one. If you want to invest, the broadcast standard is the Sony 77.

The temporary workaround for #1 is to reduce the vocal presence a bit by dipping out the EQ at around 2,000-6,000 Hz, adding a "bit" of compression, and renorming the audio level.

The long-term workaround for #1 is breath support exercises, lower tummy toning, and a lot of patience until she's in her late teens and has transitioned to more chest resonance. Don't try to force her vocal center down at her age.
;?)

amendegw wrote on 11/9/2011, 2:34 PM

Maybe a voiceover by Cher? [heh, heh]

...Jerry

farss wrote on 11/9/2011, 2:36 PM

"The audio sounds very tinny. I realize the kitchen has a lot of audio reflective surfaces and I am guessing that does not help."

Indeed.
Hanging some blankets arounf the room out of shot is definately worth a try

"just looking to get it to be more of what you are used to hearing on TV I guess"

You'll never get that young lady to sound like Morgan Freeman.

I don't know what FXs VP has but an equaliser would be my first go to tool to try to warm her voice up. All that can do is increase the level of the frequncies that make a voice sound warm i.e. the lower frequencies. If they're not there in the first place then there is going to be a significant limit to what you can achieve.

There are more sophisticated tools used to fatten up a voice that combine compression, equalisation and excitation. I recall one from Aphex that can work miracles at adding what was never there.

The kind of mic and where it is placed relative to the sound source is also very important. In general with voices you loose the low frequencies the further awy the mic is, that's why singers seem to be trying to swallow the mic. The young lady's voice is fragile, too many hard surfaces and both the mics you're using probably have fairly strong proximity effects. The Shure will sound better much closer to her mouth.

Also, do something about that forced smile. The talent is probably under a lot of stress and that will not help how her voice sounds. Get her relaxed and having FUN, she will sound heaps better, she will look happy.

Bob.

safrican wrote on 11/9/2011, 2:38 PM

Thanks for the info, truly appreciated. I will give that a try. I did look at lapel mics but you can spend anything from $20 to $1000. I try to be the buy it once kind of guy but I might go for something in the middle and see how it pans out.

Yes, there are a lot of echo's, granite counter tops, tile flooring, stainless etc.

Anyway, thanks a bunch, let me tackle the equalizer and see how far I get too.

musicvid10 wrote on 11/9/2011, 2:51 PM

"I did look at lapel mics but you can spend anything from $20 to $1000."
You get what you pay for, but something in the $200 range will be good for this.

"Yes, there are a lot of echo's, granite counter tops, tile flooring, stainless etc. "
The closer to the mouth, the better.
Here's a solution that would work nicely for you (I own one for a wireless unit):
http://www.microphonemadness.com/

Either way, you will need to supply phantom power from your mixer.

"Also, do something about that forced smile."
Agree with Bob. Just relaxing the jaw and pharynx muscles will do wonders for a tight voice.

john_dennis wrote on 11/9/2011, 2:58 PM

I would try to suppress the echo as others have suggested and let little girls sound like little girls as long as possible.

musicvid10 wrote on 11/9/2011, 3:01 PM

" . . . and let little girls sound like little girls as long as possible. "

You mean like most 30-40 y/o actresses on television these days?

;?)

paul_w wrote on 11/9/2011, 3:07 PM

And add some background music to jazz things up a little :) French toast?... French accordian music? Just thinking aloud, you choose :). The background music will also help to hide some of the room reverb too. Other than that, all the above. EQ would help and remember eleminate reverb (echo) as much as you can.

Paul.

Former user wrote on 11/9/2011, 3:22 PM

I'm with musicvid. There's actually really nothing "wrong' with the audio to my ears. It sounds like it should. The mic should be a little closer...apron strap is a good idea. Not only will it pick up more of Kristen, it'll also pick up resonance from her torso which will introduce some lower frequencies.

Most of what I think you're concerned about is room noise. Gently gating the audio will help eliminate some of the room noise, but you're on the right track.

I could recommend an Aphex Channel if you want to drop $1000 for instant bottom end, but that would be overkill. :-)

ChristoC wrote on 11/9/2011, 3:59 PM

> I realize the kitchen has a lot of audio reflective surfaces and I am guessing that does not help.

That is the heart of the matter, and must be fixed 'at source' to improve intelligibility - place/hang as many blankets and matresses as you can around the room out of sight, including the floor (a lot of people forget the floor!). Fixes in post are a band-aid at best.

paul_w wrote on 11/9/2011, 4:03 PM

Seems like quite a lot of dialog for the young girl to do a re-take, that was my thinking. Was thinking more of a post fix for thsat reason. But of course, a re-take (with better miking) as above is best if possible.

Paul.

Guy S. wrote on 11/9/2011, 4:04 PM

The mic has an edgy sound centered around 3.5kHz and it's picking up a lot of room reverb around 545Hz. Fortunately, you can deal with these things within Vegas and substantially improve your sound.

If you can justify the purchase, an Audio Technica Pro 70 lavalier mic will substantially improve your sound. It has a smoother, warmer sound and picks up well even when used 3' to 4' from the subject. It also has a very low output impedance (150 Ohms) that will eliminate the broadband hash/hiss in your audio track.

NOTE: make sure the audio is Normalized, else the Threshold setting in Multi-Band Dynamics will be incorrect.

Track EQ (one of the three default audio adjustments available on each track)
Frequency 1:
Freq. 120Hz
Gain +3.6
Bandwidth 2.6
Frequency 2:
Freq. 545Hz
Gain -11
Bandwidth 1.9
Frequency 3:
Freq. 3,290Hz
Gain -4.6
Bandwidth 1.0

Multi-Band Dynamics (you will need to add this effect to the audio track)
Band 1:
Threshold -29
Amount 8:1
Gain 0dB
Attack Time 1.0 (default)
Release Time 100 (default)
Type = Band Notch
Center 3,575Hz
Width 1.0 (default)
Output Gain 0 (default)

Former user wrote on 11/9/2011, 5:30 PM

Another option is to use a second camera to shoot isos (isolation/close ups) and then use a voice-over recorded after the fact. Just cut-aways with a VO.

And while you're at it...hang a mirror from the ceiling and get those ever-popular overhead shots.

To paraphrase "Jaws," you're going to need a bigger budget. ;-)

safrican wrote on 11/9/2011, 8:28 PM

Thanks, a lot of very good advice, really appreciate all the help.

I am looking into lav mics. Might be the way to go.

Will also shoot a sample with blankets on the floor and against the wall and window.

Also setting the audio as per Guy, thanks a bunch.

rs170a wrote on 11/9/2011, 8:48 PM

Moving blankets are used a lot by pro sound folks to deal with situations like yours.
Producer's Choice is the brand recommended a lot and this company is very inexpensive.
If you have a "Two Men and a Truck" in your area, see if they'll sell you a few blankets.
They have their own brand and are supposed to be very good.

Mike

Byron K wrote on 11/9/2011, 10:57 PM

Cute Video. W/ some practice I'm sure she will get more relaxed in front of the camera.

I think what you're hearing is the ambient room reverb, which there's not much you can do except warm up the voice w/ a little EQ.

As some have mentioned, a lapel mic should clean up the audio quite a bit. I've purchased two of these and works quite well.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=atr3350&N=0&InitialSearch=yes

musicvid10 wrote on 11/9/2011, 11:29 PM

I agree that budget A-T is a good general-purpose lapel mic. I've owned a couple over the years.

However it is an omni, and the audio in that environment would benefit from the additional isolation a cardioid (such as the MM headworn I linked) offers. Of course one must be more careful about positioning and "aiming" a cardioid, and they can be annoying if there is any surface rubbing.

Another good choice would be a used MKE-4 Gold from eBay, if it could be retrofitted with the proper connector (presumably XLRM).

amendegw wrote on 11/10/2011, 4:23 AM

re: Byron K's recommendation of the Audio-Technica ATR3350 Omnidirectional Condenser Lavalier Microphone. I also have a couple of these. They work well with my Zoom H1 - assume you wouldn't have a problem with your H2. At $26 it's quite a deal.

While not necessary, I got a Y-cable to enable the use of two of these guys with the H1. Also, snipped and re-soldered the cable on one so it's nice & short.

...Jerry

safrican wrote on 11/11/2011, 8:50 PM

Thanks, I have ordered an ATR3350, it is cheap enough to experiment with.

Steve Mann wrote on 11/17/2011, 3:58 PM

She can cook for us anytime...

I have some of the ATR low-cost lapel mics, and they are better than any thousand-dollar shotgun mics for getting just the presenter's voice.

Also, she needs a new apron without small horizontal lines. This adds to the encoder overhead and makes interference patterns (Moire patterns) in the final output.

She should be encouraged to keep this up. Not only will her front-of-camera talents improve, you will eat better.

safrican wrote on 11/17/2011, 8:00 PM

Thanks, yes, I saw the apron is giving the encoder a run for it's money. I have spoken to the lady in wardrobe (my wife) for a new apron :-) It is on it's way.