Horrible Render, Need Help NOW!

FCR,LLC wrote on 8/17/2013, 12:00 PM
Ok, New Windows 7 64 bit PC running Vegas Pro Edit 12,...trying to render MPEG-2 video for a Sony DVD Archetct Stream. Picture Looks like very bad! The Capture image during editing looks amazing, this is great quality standard def DVcam footage. How in the blazes can I get better quality out this program. I'm desperate and out of time on this project. Does any one have any solid ideas what to do?

Comments

Tech Diver wrote on 8/17/2013, 12:11 PM
It is impossible to answer your questions without you first giving us critical information:

1. Fill out your system specification in your user profile
2. Give us details about your source files (codec, frame rate, etc.)
3. What are your project setting
4. Which template are your using to render your video

Peter
FCR,LLC wrote on 8/17/2013, 12:58 PM
Ok, Information on PC is Updated for all to see. Project Specs are like this:
Capture: Frame Rate: 29.970 NTSC , Master Stream = None
Preview: Base DV Decoding resolution on Preview Window Size( Checked )
Allow Full Screen File Playback via Preview on Device or Record to Device
( Checked)
Project Properties: NTSC DV Widescreen ( 720X480, 29.970 fps)
Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1.2121 ( NTSC DV Widescreen)
Stereoscopic 3d Mode : Off
Pixel Format: 8 bit
Full Resolution Quality: Best / Good ( Have Tried Both )
Motion Type Blur : Gaussian
Deinterlaced Method: None
rs170a wrote on 8/17/2013, 1:03 PM
You forgot to answer #4 which was which template are your using to render your video. Also, how long is the project?

Mike
FCR,LLC wrote on 8/17/2013, 1:04 PM
( More info)
Audio : 16 Bit , 48,000 Hrz
Resample Quality: Good
Render Info: MPEG-2 ,
Template: DVD Architect NTSC Widescreen Video Stream
The Codec is the sonny one? Not sure and can I set the codec settings or get a 3rd party one? Not sure how that works?
FCR,LLC wrote on 8/17/2013, 1:05 PM
Project is 1 hour 4 minutes long.
musicvid10 wrote on 8/17/2013, 1:49 PM
Not sure what your bitrate settings are (you didn't say), but try one of these in your DVD Architect Widescreen template:

-- 8,000,000 bps Constant bitrate;

-- or, if disc playback stutters a little --

2- pass Variable bitrate
-- max 9,500,000
-- avg 6,000,000
-- min 2,000,000

A description of something more specific than "horrible" will be more likely to result in specific advice from the user base here.
Using new hardware and software on a time-sensitive assignment is usually not the recommended approach.
FCR,LLC wrote on 8/17/2013, 2:11 PM
I am aware of using such equipment and have been editing non linear video for 15 years, so I do have experience and not a real novice to this, thank you. As to the
" Horrible " description, the image just is not nearly as sharp as the captured image on when editing then my rendered video looks almost like VHS quality video. Trying your idea on the bit rate . Any other TECHNICAL advice is appreciated.
rs170a wrote on 8/17/2013, 2:20 PM
musicvid10 is correct about using a 8,000,000 constant bitrate as that's as good as it's going to get.
The final product is not as sharp because you're taking a (roughly) 13 GB. file and compressing down to a bit over 4 GB. Something has to give and that something is picture quality :(
You don't say what kind of camera you're using but I can tell you that the better the source video, the better the end product.

Mike
Tech Diver wrote on 8/17/2013, 2:21 PM
Is the "low quality" rendering noticeable after the Vegas rendering or after you create a DVD rendering in DVD Architect? What I am trying to determine is whether or not DVD Architect is recompressing your video.

Peter
FCR,LLC wrote on 8/17/2013, 2:37 PM
No,..The quality seems bad after the render, before DVD architect. The quality did improve with the bit rate adjustment, but now it stutters allot. Testing other bit rate settings. Any other thoughts are appreciated. Thank Allot. ~ Dana
musicvid10 wrote on 8/17/2013, 2:38 PM
"the image just is not nearly as sharp as the captured image."
Is the loss of sharpness in relatively stable areas, high motion areas, or both?

"this is great quality standard def
Just noticed this. Is it standard DV or professional DVcam? Two different formats.

"Any other TECHNICAL advice is appreciated. "
As always, precise descriptions and details will get you precise responses.

[i]"Trying your idea on the bit rate."
Given the length of your video, either of those suggestions should work, but the second is less likely to stutter than the first.
Unfortunately, the defaults (192Kbps Min, 1-pass VBR) are pretty bad.

Do let us know how it turns out.

FCR,LLC wrote on 8/17/2013, 2:48 PM
This is Professional DVcam Footage, the sharpness loss is both, stable and motion areas. Any other ideas from anyone are welcome.
musicvid10 wrote on 8/17/2013, 2:57 PM
Although the only capture difference should have been the transport speed, it would be helpful to see your captured file properties as reported by MediaInfo.
The reason I'm interested is I've made several stellar DVD masters from edited DVcam footage, and sold out every time.

farss wrote on 8/17/2013, 4:23 PM
DV/DVCAM in NTSC land uses 4:1:1 chroma sampling. MPEG-2 for DVD mandates 4:2:0 sampling. Some loss of image quality is inevitable due to nothing more than the chroma resampling. Back in the days of DV I read rumours that some were shooting with PAL DV cameras in NTSC land just to get around this problem as PAL DV is 4:2:0.

Bob.
musicvid10 wrote on 8/17/2013, 4:38 PM
"DV/DVCAM in NTSC land uses 4:1:1 chroma sampling. MPEG-2 for DVD mandates 4:2:0 sampling. "

The net result, it should be mentioned, being 4:1:0.
FCR,LLC wrote on 8/17/2013, 4:48 PM
OK,..maybe getting a brain spasm here,..but the Video capture is avi. should'nt capture in MPEG-2?
musicvid10 wrote on 8/17/2013, 5:02 PM
Yes, DV is AVI and DVD is MPEG-2.
You captured via Firewire cable, correct?
You are rendering interlaced MPEG-2, correct?
You are not resizing your video on the timeline, correct?
FCR,LLC wrote on 8/17/2013, 5:09 PM
Yes, I think so. It's a 4 pin to 6 Firewire IEEE1394 pin from my Sony DVcam DSR-25 Deck to the Video Capture card. So it should be capturing in .avi?
musicvid10 wrote on 8/17/2013, 5:11 PM
"Video Capture card" is 1394 Firewire, not USB, correct?
FCR,LLC wrote on 8/17/2013, 5:17 PM
The Deinterlaced Method is set to NONE , correct? No not resizing the image on the time line.
FCR,LLC wrote on 8/17/2013, 5:17 PM
1394 Correct,..not USB
John_Cline wrote on 8/17/2013, 5:52 PM
DV and DVCAM use the same 25 Mbps DVC-format video encoding, the difference is video track width and tape speed of the tape itself. The audio difference is "locked" vs. "unlocked" but that isn't relevant here.

I just leave the "deinterlace method" set to "interpolate" 99% of the time.

For a one hour and four minute, an 8,000,000 bps CBR render is going to provide the best quality. Always set the quality slider in the MPEG-2 encoder to "31" regardless of bitrate or VBR vs CBR.

Also, you don't say what video player you're using to judge the post-rendering/encoding video quality.
musicvid10 wrote on 8/17/2013, 6:10 PM
I asked if the render is interlaced; you already shared your project settings before . . .
For fallback reasons, project interlace method should stay at Interpolate, as John Cline says; although, if you have done everything correctly, it should make no difference in this project.

Please post the properties of your MPEG-2 render, using MediaInfo from Sourceforge. There is a relatively short list of things that can cause loss of sharpness in a DV->DVD render. Also post a screenshot of what you are seeing, or upload a shorter MPEG-2 sample somewhere.
FCR,LLC wrote on 8/17/2013, 6:40 PM
It's seems to be no different. I played it on a pc, Bluray Player, Standard DVD player, it looks about the same. I do notice however it looks worse after authoring it to DVD via DVD Architect. Thanks to the advice here, the image has improved after rendering, but goes apart after the DVD rendering. BTW, thanks to all you Vegas Pros for all your advise. I know I'm close to an answer here.