Housekeeping List - Anyone Else?

swarrine wrote on 5/28/2002, 10:15 AM
For me, these are the top 5 housekeeping type items that I would like to see improved. There are other upgrade items that I would like to see of course, but these items already either exist in parts, or should exist.

1. Ripple Edit.
2. Copy/paste attributes including keyframes to clips.
3. Ditto features in track motion to event pan/crop (Namely Glow and Shadow).
4. Audio scrub by dragging timeline cursor.
5. Include sound in firewire (pre-render) output.

Explanations:

1. Ripple Edit. My number one complaint. The quick and easy fix would be to add an item that selects all events on all tracks from cursor to end (clip based NOT frame based). It could easily be better than that, but I will take quick and easy over nothing.

2. Copy/paste attributes including keyframes to clips. This is a more complex issue so I will give a basic example: You have 25 stills on a timeline and you want to A: Apply interlace filter to all and B: Apply a Video FX with keyframes to all clips. The bottom line is yes - you can do this if you know your way around VV3.

In the case of (A) when you select multiple events, properties (and therefore Apply interlace filter) is disabled, however, you can right click>switches>interlace...

In the case of (B) most people would say you can't copy video FX keyframes from one clip to another. Actually, you can, you just have to know the trick. You can't do it globally, but if copying an exact keyframe sequence from one clip to another is important, it can be done.

My point here is this stuff is kind of all over the place and it would be nice to have one section where you can copy/paste attributes (whatever they may be) from one clip to another or to a series of other clips. It is standard in other editing programs.

3. Ditto features in track motion to event pan/crop (Namely Glow and Shadow). I like to keep my tracks to a minimum. If you want to do a pip with a border, track motion is the only tool that will do it easily. What if you have 50 of them? That would be too many tracks to easily manage. I much prefer to do this on the event level, not the track level.

4. Audio scrub by dragging timeline cursor. I have learned my way around this, but still think it is a valuable feature if it is possible to do.

5. Include sound in firewire (pre-render) output. Not too far in our future is real time straight cut output from the timeline. It would be nice if there is audio to go along with it.

Hopefully, you all will add constructive suggestions to this list.

It would also be nice if SF would tell us if some, all, none of these items are in the works for the next update. Timing for the next update would be nice as well.

Even if SF does nothing, I am convinced that VV3 is the best editing software available on the market today and I am still very happy that I bought it.

Thank you.

Comments

stepfour wrote on 5/28/2002, 11:50 AM
In about 2 weeks I'll have plenty to add. For now, I can second the part about the audio being included in external firewire prerender view. I had already run into that. I've also been doing a lot of reading here and on COW about the ripple edits. I have this sinking fear that this big project I am working on now is going to run smack into that soon.
swarrine wrote on 5/28/2002, 12:13 PM
The ripple cure (hopefully temporary)---Use your select tool, select from end of timeline drag back to insert point, drag the selected events out, insert or whatever, reselect from end of timeline, drag back.

You can also easily use select events to end if you are working with a single video/audio track. There are ways to use select events to end in a multi track environment, but you have to be very carefull to select events in each track or you will be moving some things and not others.
SonyEPM wrote on 5/28/2002, 12:15 PM
None of these will be released in the next upDATE. Updates are typically bug-fixes only. We'll put your requests on the "wsih list" for the next major upgrade (meaning Vegas 4).
stepfour wrote on 5/28/2002, 1:09 PM
The ripple edit thing should almost be a bug fix deal, huh? I know it works the way it was programmed to work, but, I don't think any editing software should be without an easy and safe method of making a small change to a laboriously-created project and have it ripple so everything else stays where it belongs. Perhaps it's a bug not having that in place. I'm a newbie at Vegas. Workarounds cause me fear. For now, when I come to the fine tuning of this project, I'm going to use the "SEPU" method.
SAVE-EDIT-PREVIEW-UNDO. That'll be my safety net for the time being. By the way, I'm not trying to make an unnecessary harsh criticism of Vegas, but, like swarrine, I do feel the ripple edit fix, update or whatever, should be done like the "a" update was. How about 3.0b??
johnmeyer wrote on 5/28/2002, 5:03 PM
I agree entirely with 2Road's comments. Any time I move something in a complex project, I feel like I'm working "without a net." Ripple edit should default to affecting all events later in time on all tracks. The current behavior should be the exception, not the default.
Tyler.Durden wrote on 5/28/2002, 6:55 PM
What should the ripple rule-set be?

All events crossing the timeline-timecode of the head of the event, the tail of the event... halfway? Any exceptions (locked of course)?

Your thoughts?

mph

stepfour wrote on 5/28/2002, 11:26 PM
At least one of the settings should be everything coming after the area the change was made will stick with what it was with, inclusive of things on other tracks. For lack of a better prase, I'll call that checkbox, ALWAYS MAINTAIN COHESIVENESS OF WHOLE PROJECT DURING EDITING. I really can't think of any reason why this wouldn't be anyones wish.

Scenario: you've got all your dozens of little clips and sound events and effects and titles and everything in place. Yep, you're almost home, but, you find you need to insert a clip in the middle of the project. You pop it in there and save your project. Then you play your project and realize inserting that clip has cost you hours, perhaps days (if you're me).

Of course no one would normally save before taking a look, but it really doesn't matter. The cohesiveness of your project is always at risk if the software won't let you insert or delete without disrupting everything that comes after.
Cheesehole wrote on 5/29/2002, 12:07 AM
>>>You pop it in there and save your project. Then you play your project and realize inserting that clip has cost you hours, perhaps days (if you're me).

why don't you hit "undo" ? you should be able to undo your way back to the state your project was in when you first opened it.

>>>The cohesiveness of your project is always at risk if the software won't let you insert or delete without disrupting everything that comes after.

I can appreciate the need for better ripple editing, but this doesn't quite make sense. any time you insert or delete something, you are by definition, shifting things around. Vegas *does* ripple the events when I paste-insert or insert time and also when I delete time, and it does it on all tracks. maybe it isn't exactly to everyone's liking including mine, but it isn't buggy. there is no one *perfect* way to do it and the suggestion that it's a bug is a big stretch.

if anything is a bug it's the behavior when splitting groups of several events! instead of getting two new groups (one to the left of the cursor and one to the right of the cursor) instead you get crazy whacked groups that make no sense. hours later in the editing process you realize there's events grouped that are miles apart and one of them is in the totally wrong place!

of course it isn't really a bug. it's consistent, but it's just wrong in my opinion.

changing the functionality would be a major revision to the code, not something I'd ever expect in an update. I did expect it to be fixed in the VV3 upGRADE and was somewhat disappointed it didn't make the cut.

if you don't like the result of one of your edits, you can always "undo" as much as you like and try a different approach. between unlimited undos and auto-backups, there is no "operating without a safety net" in Vegas that I can see.

and as long as I'm contributing my 27 cents :D I think that's a great list swarrine. for #3, I'd also like to see dropshadow and blur edges as an assignable effect similar to the way photoshop works. it would be at the event level then, and it could be applied to imported text and graphics with an alpha channel, and not just as a rectangular effect to the whole frame.
stepfour wrote on 5/29/2002, 8:53 AM
Yes, the ability to undo, save and, or, save as, so you can revert to a good version of your project is good but that's not going to help me easily slip that clip in where I need it and have everything else stay where it belongs. Funny thing about edidting video is that nothing else tends towards afterthoughts like it does. There's always something that needs to be added. I could do this with the lower-end packages I have used before. Products like Canopus EZEdit. Was that feature crucial. Oh, yeah, it definately was/is.

As I said before, I'll have some things to add to swarrines list too after I use Vegas a while. For now the ripple thing and the no audio on firewire preview are the ones I have been impacted by. Just last night/early this morning I was editing and really wanted to monitor the sound by hooking bud earphones into the camcorder. My computer speakers are a 3-way deal with sub woofer but no headphone jack. Anyway, lacking sound coming in on the firewire, I could not monitor the sound with headphones so the whole house had to hear the same boring soloist from that wedding over, and over, and over (and over). The cat even walked in once and gave me a bewildered look. I finally tired out about 1:30AM, and the music died. Add sound to the external preview. How hard would that be?
SonyEPM wrote on 5/29/2002, 8:55 AM
If you need to ripple/insert across multiple tracks, try this:

1) Set up an example project:

Track 1: text and graphic events
Track 2: video events (use cuts for this example)
Track 3-10: audio events

2) Load a captured clip with audio + video in the trimmer- make a time selection (define the in/out marks of the source clip). In the lower right you'll see a selection length (duration). For this example, make sure both audio and video are active within the selection ("tab" key cycles thru a,v, both)

3) Go to the timeline, park the cursor at the place you would like to insert this event.

4) Select all ("ctrl+a", selecting all events)

5) Insert> time: Enter the trimmer selection length, click OK. EVERYTHING is pushed down the timeline by the value you entered- events, keyframes, envelope points.

6) Click on the trimmer selction and drag it to the timeline, dropping it into the track 2 (and 3 since there will be audio with it).

Everything will still be in relative (vertical) sync, you will have just opened up a hole, and filled it.
-----------

To ripple/delete everything: make a time selection, select all, delete. Everything is sucked back by the selection length.

-----------

Yes, ripple insert using this method could be cleaner, but you media composer users know that 10 track ripples as described above requires lots of track-enable clicking and source-destination snapping, more steps believe it or not.

We will be revisiting a number of the editing behaviors in the next upgrade of Vegas so keep those suggestions coming. If you come up with a rule, great- make sure it covers all the cases and we'll consider it.

Former user wrote on 5/29/2002, 9:16 AM
Tyler.Durden wrote on 5/29/2002, 9:30 AM
OK,

How 'bout these options for the rules: (example image, new window)

http://www.martyhedler.com/ima/00/02/05/80/ripple1.JPG

OPTION X: all events BEGINNING AFTER the point of inserted time move unless locked.

OPTION Y: all events CROSSING AND AFTER the timeline-timecode of the point of inserted time move unless locked.

OPTION Z: all events crossing the timeline-timecode of the point of inserted time split unless locked, those AFTER move. ( this is consistent with insert behavior within a track, BTW)

Option not shown: adding time to the head or tail of a clip. Splitting is probably not appropriate, so... X or Y?


Another thought: Anybody gotta problem with MUTE locking an entire track?

Your thoughts?

MPH

SonyEPM wrote on 5/29/2002, 12:21 PM
If you want to:

1) Ripple Events in this track only

Choose the track you want to affect- this is the "focus track" (pick a video track as an example). Push (disable) the "Ignore event grouping button".

In the trimmer, make a time selection, hit the tab key so only the video stream is highlighted, click "add media from cursor" button. Video gets inserted at timeline cursor poition, all events/keyframes/envelope points on that track get pushed down by the trimmer selection length.

2) Ripple Events across all tracks

Use the method described in my earlier post

3) Ripple Like Events (i.e. video if you are inserting video and audio if you are inserting audio)

Same as #1, except: Leave "ignore event grouping" button unpushed.

4) Do not ripple

Turn off (unpressed) the ripple edits toolbar button.


stepfour wrote on 5/29/2002, 1:32 PM
martyh, that looks good. Ripple editing with plenty of flexibility. Sonic Foundry likes its products to be out front of the crowd. Adding something like this would be along that same line; a truly useful feature.

Not sure what you mean about mute locking the entire track but if you mean whether a portion of a track can be un-muted, that would be important too. Honestly, I have not tried it yet, but I do have the audio on one track completed muted and tonight I want to try to un-mute just a section of that track. Is that what you meant?

Thanks again for the visionary post.

Chienworks wrote on 5/29/2002, 1:40 PM
I think what martyh means is that if the track is muted, then ripple/insert time/delete time edits will have no effect on that particular track. Is that right? I don't think there's anyway to unmute part of a muted track.
johnmeyer wrote on 5/29/2002, 1:51 PM
MartyH,

Very nice work describing and illustrating your three options.

I believe that Option Z is the only one that will always keep problems from occurring downstream from the edit point. In addition, while it may be true that the split that occurs in B-2 in your example may not always be what you want at that point, it is easy to immediately see the problem and fix that track (or tracks) because the problem occurs at the point at which you are inserting. What makes the current behavior of Vegas so nasty is that surprises often don't show up until many minutes downstream. At that point (when you later move downstream to a later time in the edit line) it is difficult to find out where the problem happened, unless you undo what may be dozens of additional edits that you have made since you inserted the clip.

I'd be very happy with Option Z.
Tyler.Durden wrote on 5/29/2002, 2:12 PM
I meant that rather than having to "select all clips to end" on a track you wish to lock (like music) during ripple editing an other track(s), it might be handy to just hit the mute button to lock the track. I'm wondering if that would throw a wrench into any other operations... but I can't think of a situation where I would want to edit a track that was muted. Sorry if I wasn't clear, or if I'm still not.

FWIW, Option-Z with option y for drag-trimming is similar to other systems I have used.

Another option might be to only move events on tracks that are selected at the track header... that would function as an "opt-in" as opposed to an "opt-out" that track locking alludes to.

Your thoughts?

MPH



stepfour wrote on 5/29/2002, 2:12 PM
martyh, that looks great! Ripple editing with plenty of flexibility. Sonic Foundry likes its products to be out front of the crowd. Adding something like this would be along that same line; and a truly useful function.

Not sure what you mean about mute locking the track but if you mean whether the user can un-mute a portion of a track, I was wondering about that. I will be trying to do just that, later this evening.

Thanks again for your visionary post.
Tyler.Durden wrote on 5/29/2002, 2:17 PM
Regarding un-muting a portion of a track, I suggest adding another track and moving the segment(s) to the added track (numpad8).

HTH, MPH
Cheesehole wrote on 5/29/2002, 4:31 PM
>>>but I can't think of a situation where I would want to edit a track that was muted. Sorry if I wasn't clear, or if I'm still not.

no no! don't make mute lock tracks. instead add another track header button to lock the track independantly of mute.

I edit training presentations with one camera pointed at the guy, and one at the slide show he is presenting. I keep the two tracks in sync on the Vegas timeline, but I keep the slides track muted so it doesn't ever show up when I fade in and out of the "guy" track. it is necessary that the muted slide-show track stay in sync with the "guy" track when I cut it up and slide things around!

nice suggestions with the rulesets and all that jazz!

option Z is exactly the way things work currently when you "Paste Insert" right? I just tried it with no clips or tracks selected, and it split/shifted everything across all tracks right at the cursor.
Tyler.Durden wrote on 5/29/2002, 5:13 PM
I hear you on the lock button. Lots of apps have 'em. (Just tryin to save UI space.)

As for the paste, my test only ripples the associated audio. Perhaps that's why EPM suggests crtl-a, insert-time to split across all tracks.

How exactly are you inserting and moving all tracks?

mmmmmmm......Ripple. (Homer Simpson)

Cheers, MPH

swarrine wrote on 5/29/2002, 9:50 PM
1. Ripple Edit.
(A) Add new menu item: Select ALL Events to End
Rule: Select all events that cross through or are after cursor on all tracks. Otherwise rules are the same as select events to end. Including allow CTRL+Click to add or subtract a clip/event from selection.

(B) Add new menu item: Ripple Insert Event
Rule: Same as Select ALL Events to End 1(A)
Rule: Allow event drag>insert to cursor. Make before and after events snap to insert event.
Rule: Open dialog box to allow for transition overlap for start and end of insert event. (I am not sure how to do this, however something needs to be done for transitions in and out of the inserted event.)

2. Copy/paste attributes including keyframes to clips.
(A) Add new menu item: Copy/Paste Attributes to Events
Rule: Allow copy of all attributes by category I.E. Video FX, Track Motion, Event Pan/Crop....
Rule: Allow Paste of copied attributes to selected events.

3. Ditto features in track motion to event pan/crop (Namely Glow and Shadow).
Rule: Combine all features of track motion and Event Pan/Crop and allow users to apply to either/and/or a track or event.

4. Audio scrub by dragging timeline cursor.
Rule: Audio scrub by dragging timeline cursor.

5. Include sound in firewire (pre-render) output.
Rule: Include sound in firewire (pre-render) output.

I would like to thank you for telling me that we need to wait until VV4 for these suggestions. I won't keep waiting for a quick fix. That is fine for me, I understand where SF is coming from.

Everyone has been hyping on ripple edit (including me) however, I think that being able to copy/paste event attributes to other clips is equally important and hope it will be considered as a top priority as well.

Thank you.

Chienworks wrote on 5/29/2002, 11:23 PM
Ben, maybe this will get chalked up to the way my brain functions (or not) in the middle of the night, but ... if you always keep that track muted, then why put it in your project at all?

Sorry, just curious. ;)
Cheesehole wrote on 5/30/2002, 1:27 PM
>>> if you always keep that track muted, then why put it in your project at all?

ahh I guess I forgot that part. because after the video is edited, I go to the actual powerpoint file that was used in the presentation, and using the muted "slide show" track I can edit the PowerPoint to match it.

often presenters skip slides, go back to previous ones etc... so the actual PowerPoint doesn't match the chronology of the live presentation until I go in and shuffle the slides around. the only way I would know which slide the presenter was showing, is by looking at that muted slide track.

no matter how much the presenter jumps around in the slide show, and no matter how much I cut out or shuffle around myself in the editing process, in the end I always have that slide track to show me which slide was showing at any given time.

in the final final presentation (the one the trainees see) the video plays and full size slides show at the appropriate times next to the video. the sequence of slides will be *as presented* so everything will make sense.

hope that explains it!

Vegas's amazing interface allows you to go far beyond video editing. you should see what I'm doing with the "edit details" data in excel ;D