I had a customer ... I said I'd do it for $100.
Then I found out the video needed some color and sound correction. I did it.<<

THAT''S the problem here. The client hired you to do a straight transfer, and YOU decided to put a lot more work and time into it.

You could have tried to upsell the client first, perhaps with a short sample of his/her footage before and after.

In any business it's good to deliver a bit more than the client expects, but what you did and the cost to you is a recipe for disaster business-wise.

Gary

In any business it's good to deliver a bit more than the client expects...

Excellent point, Gary! That's one the we live by and try to deliver with each job.

J--

I'm with Gary on this, I'd chalk it up to experience. You may want to show her what you did and hope to get some "word-of-mouth" for a better paying project. If you notice it needs tweaking, I'd just call them to ask if they want to spend the extra money.
Randy

I do a lot of 8mm and VHS transfers and it's a hard market to make a real dollar in and I'd starve if I had that as my only source of income. One way to make it a bit more realistic for both you and the client is if you can do it as 'standby' work. Mostly this kind of stuff is already many years old so the client doesn't need it done NOW.
Gary is right of course, you need to have a low figure to snare the work and having quoted that you sure need to stick to it, no matter what you think it needed. Having said that there's no harm in educating the client or to put it in salespeak, upselling the job.
In your current situation I'll usually throw in a bit for nix, say it's some footage of a wedding, I'll usually make the effort to get the brides dress white, if it's just kids in park, I'll leave it as is. If you have put a LOT more effort into it than your quote allowed for, well as Gary said you can just write it off to experience, maybe mention it to the client, oftenly they'll offer to chip in a bit more. It's a lot easier with VHS transfers, you can easily show them the before and after.

I agree with Brian, this is very similar to what we do here. The catch is to offer diffrent "levels" of authoring packages. We have a consumer department, he deals with all the average joe's that come in of the street and want a copy of their video or film put on a DVD or VHS. Usually that department is very cheap becasue he doesn't spend nearly as much time on projects. For DVD transfer, it's just straight from tape to a standalone DVD recorder and that's about it. The prices are cheap, and the transfers are quick.

Then there's my department which is more the corporate and specialty department. This is for people that need a little more work done on their videos, they want better menus on the DVD's, better encoding quality and things like that. The equipment I use is far more expensive than what is used in the consumer department, and I am a lot more experienced and knowledgeable, so the hourly rate to work with me is almost double of what it is in the consumer department.

If a client comes in and wants to put a video on DVD we give them the 2 options, either a really basic DVD, or a more advanced one with better menus, better encoding etc.. Then the client can make the decision on how much they want to spend and then the job goes to the appropriate department. You'll find you get a LOT less people walking away becasue they can't afford to have the work done. If they can't afford the more expensive package they will 9 times out of 10 go with the cheaper package, and you still have money coming in the door.

John,

You've got a good understanding of our business model. By focusing a great deal of resources on our workflow and efficiency, we are able to offer very attractive rates to our customers. In addition, as a wholesale business, we do not sell directly to end customers. So our low marketing expenses and efficient operations allow us to offer this service to retail stores as well as to web sites like Sony ImageStation.

In addition to these retail-oriented services, we also have a professional services division where we offer video professionals wholesale rates to convert their videos onto DVD with private-label packaging and enhanced service offerings. (http://www.yesvideo.com/code/pro.htm)

Nearly 1800 video companies use our services as a cost-effective way to make money on video and film transfers ... and allow them to focus on the more creative and profitable aspects of their business.

If you have any questions, please feel free to drop me a line.

Jason

Jason Primuth
Director, Business Development
YesVideo, Inc.
408.907.7603
jprimuth@yesvideo.com

Folks--

Thanks to all of you for this enlightening conversation. I learned a lot!

Matt

Matt

I think your initial query and subsequent responses by forum members demonstrates the power of this forum and others.

There is a wealth of experience out there, which we can all learn and benefit from.

My 2 cents worth.

Brian

Most people don't watch their home movies 'cause they're boring. What they REALLY want is to ENJOY watching their home movies. So here's how I position my services...an affordable custom shop that will make their home movies an experience... fun to watch!

If all they want want is mass marketied vanilla bland product...go to the drug store get the cheapest transfer possible. They will still never watch them more than once becuase no they're BORING on VHS or DVD!

I've got "consumer packages" at set fees for the length of the original footage and final home movie. Two hours of original footage can very easily end up being 1/2 to one hour of really entertaining movies. I have the client come in after capturing the vids to scrub through and rough edit...this way they edit what they don't want and "buy into" the process...and they own it.

I do commercials, mini cdrs, in-house training, etc. for small businesses with a much more defined fee schedule.

VideoCurmudgeon

I have no problem whatsover with my being an exception to "Your Rule", and appreciate your comments.

The issues that I face (and possibly others) are:

1) I live in a rural area with a relatively small population compared to a city.

2) The relative per capita income is also significant lower compared to a city.

3) Unemployment is relativley high at 19% (much higher than the Australian average).

4) There is hardly any corporate market, as the local economy is tourist based, which is pretty lean and skinny. Hence my focus on the retail market.

For these reasons, my product/pricing strategy has to recognise these contraints. If I charged much higher prices, it is unlikely that I would generate any volume business.

I also recognise that all of my equipment is paid for, and therefore any revenue generated is better than nothing, and not having it lying idle. Whilst I would like to achieve higher prices, I have to be realistic about the economics of where I live.

Most importantly, it allows me to live and enjoy living in one of the nicest places in Australia.

Brian

Brian, you brought into focus what lies at the heart of all this. It's not simply a matter of one thing or another. There are many things that one has to take into consideration. I'm in total agreement with everything you said!

I hope I didn't come across as being snobby. If I did, then I do sincerely apologize to one and all. The fact of the matter is there are people living in towns that are a fraction of the size Miami, charging a lot less than I do, that are making far more money than I am, and to them, I tip my hat!

J--

So far, the discussion in this thread has centered on how much to charge for doing transfers with or without editing, CC, etc. However, it seems to me that there is another issue.

If I make a transfer for somebody and the material contains copyrighted stuff (let's a recognizable song by a recording artist), do I expose myself to liabiliy / damages issues?

If so, what can be done? I guess, in the end it would mean I would have to sit through the entire footage before I can determine, whether it contains any material, the client may not have the necessary rights to. Even "private" material from a party, family gathering, wedding, etc. could be a problem (background music). And I would need to do this screening before I decide whether to accept the job, which might mean going through hours of footage for nothing.

Any comments?

ro_max

VideoCurmudgeon

You certainly did not come across to me as "Snobby", and you have no need to apologise.

I personally value the input and advice from you and all other forum members to my posts

It is has always been my position that I do not have a monopoly on creative thinking, as I know I can be wrong at times. I am always ready to learn something new.

Brian

Silicon Forge Pty Ltd
Queensland
Australia

If I make a transfer for somebody and the material contains copyrighted stuff (let's a recognizable song by a recording artist), do I expose myself to liabiliy / damages issues?

Yes, you would. You can do a "search" of this forum and find hundreds of posts on this very topic.

J--

I thought so. The point is that you either don't do straight transfers (without editing etc.) of unreviewed material because the client would not make it worth your while or you would have to include all sorts of disclaimers and legal language in the contract (which might scare clients just as easily as a higher charge for a reviewed transfer).

I wonder, how the dupe houses doing 20-30$ transfers handle this.

I work for a big dupe house and we won't allow copies of any unauthorised copyrighted material. The only thing we do is if someone comes in with a PAL or SECAM movie that has a copyright, we will make 1 VHS copy of them in NTSC so they can view it here. They also have to sign a disclaimer to shw that they know that the material is copyrighted and that they accept all responsibility for us making the copy. Normally they sighn it and don't even care, they just want a copy that they can view.

I remember a while back we had someone bring in a video that they wanted us to copy. They weren't aware that we made the original dub and it was from one of our biggest clients. The guy who wanted the copy said he got all the permissions to have us make a copy so he stupidly gave us his name phone number and everything. Then we called our client who owns all the copyrights to the tape and found out that the guy didn't have permission to copy it. So we busted him :)

Thanks for the info. How did your company find out that the client wanted a dub of copyrighted material unless somebody saw the tape?

A short time ago, I read Douglas Spotted Eagle's article on copyright (Sundance website) and somewhere he points out that a disclaimer or having a client sign some form or release may not mean anything if the person doing the work (editing, shooting, transferring, etc.) either knew or should have known that they were dealing with copyrighted material.

Take a client who wants a transfer of a wedding video with background music that may be coyrighted. The client (as a consumer) will probably not be too familiar with copyright law. If I take the client's word, I might still be held accountable. And that bring me back to my original point. No transfers of material I did not review before, and that would mean no cheapie straight transfers at all (because reviewing the tape wouldn't pay on a 20-30$ job).

The focus of this thread has brushed up against a topic that interests me directly, so I'd like to get opinions from the knowledgeable folks at this forum.

I am strictly an amateur videographer and I make everything from weird short documentaries to stop-motion animations to kid's sports highlight videos.

I never accept money for any of this but, especially with the kid's sports stuff, I do give away limited numbers of dvd copies (10 -15 at most) of the videos. Here's the question: Am I doing something legally wrong by adding tracks of copyright protected music to videos that I give to friends and acquaintances on this basis? If "yes", is this akin to traveling at 68 mph on a 65 mph freeway, i.e., something that no one actually cares about, or do you all think it is more serious than that? If more serious, why and how much more serious is it?

Thanks and best regards,

Lee

Well, it is illegal, even if you aren't making a profit from it. Say you only do 10-15 copies at a time, but how many times a year do you do this? 10-15 copies X 10-15 times a year can really add up. IF you get busted for just one copy, chances are they will take a look at the other stuff you've been doing and it could end up being a BIG lawsuit. Look at the school in WI that just got busted for handing out copes of a CD with copyrighted music on it for free at their prom. Now more than ever people are out there looking for copyrighted material violations, all it takes is for the video to fall in the hands of the wrong person and you could be facing a lawsuit. Now the chances of that happeneing are somewhat slim, but it can and most likely eventually will happen.

To answer your question...the fine for doing 68 mph on a 65 mph freeway, probably something like $50-$100.

The fine for using copyrighted music without permission, can range anywhere from a few thousand dollars to hundreds of thousands of dollars depending on how many violations you are found with.

"Thanks for the info. How did your company find out that the client wanted a dub of copyrighted material unless somebody saw the tape?"

We run all the VHS and DVD dubs for this big client. Some company apparently purchased one if their VHS tapes from them, and then that person brought it into us to make multiple VHS copies of it. They were apparently unaware that we made the original VHS dub that he brought in, and that we were aware that he didn't have permission from the company who produced the video to copy it.

> Am I doing something legally wrong by adding tracks of copyright protected music to videos that I give to friends and acquaintances on this basis?

Lee, Yes you definitely are. You can do this for yourself but as soon as you take it out of your house and show it at the local Boy Scout meeting, you are breaking the law. That’s without even giving any copies away. You don’t have the performance rights to play that music in a public place, you don’t have the distribution right to give that music away in your copies, and you don’t have the synchronization rights to create a derivative work by syncing that music to images in the first place. So that’s three infractions right there.

> If "yes", is this akin to traveling at 68 mph on a 65 mph freeway, i.e., something that no one actually cares about, or do you all think it is more serious than that?

First, that’s irrelevant because your are arguing, “How wrong is wrong?” and the answer is, “It depends”. If it’s the end of the month and the state trouper has not made his ticket quota and he faces a reprimand, and you’re doing 68 in a 65, you’re getting a ticket. Likewise, record companies are looking to make examples of people for illegal use of their music so they are suing the parents of children who file swap. Crazy? Perhaps. Reality? You bet!

So what you have to ask yourself is, “Am I feeling lucky today?” because its anybodies guess as to whether, what is illegal yet tolerated today, will be tolerated tomorrow (because it will still be illegal).

I am not lawyer, but like you, I do a lot of work for charity that I don’t get paid for and I use royalty free music or ACID Loops. It ain’t worth tempting fate. One of my assistant scoutmasters actually complimented me on the fine music I selected. It was royalty free buy out music. It doesn’t take a hit song to make a great video, you just have to match the music to the mood.

~jr

Jsnkc and JohnnyRoy:

Thanks for the discussion, definitely interesting turf...

Not arguing any mitigation at all here; however, I do think some of the legal ramifications of this are kind of sad and backward in their actual effect on amateur hobbyists. In fact, more than one parent has asked about some of the music tracks I've used with the specific aim of buying the artist's music.

Ah well, that's going to stop now that I know better--what a world, what a world...

Best regards,

Lee