It sound like the audio and video are 'grouped', which is the default behavior for a media file that has both video and audio content.

You can ungroup them permanently or temporarily to do what you need. Just remember to regroup after you are done so you don't cause problems later with audio and video being out of sync by inadvertenly moving one or the other on the time line.

Peter

Thanks! After extensive searching on YouTube tutorials, I also found the Control/U tip in a text response to one of the the tutorials. Seems incredibly hard to find that simple command!

How do I "regroup"? That term doesn't locate anything in either the search or the index portions of the Vegas Pro Online help. I tried to create a new group using Edit > Group but all the options under that are greyed out and inactive.

You need to select the events (in this case 1 audio and 1 video) first.
Then the command is "G"
Or, Uncheck "Ignore Event Grouping.," depending on which approach you used.

I prefer to use "Ignore Event Grouping" because it does not disturb the relationships of groups already created, it just temporarily "Ignores" them.

I did an index search in our on line help with the term "group". I was lead to the following:

Grouping Events

I don't know how much more information we could provide under the term "group" and I believe your question is directly answered.

The pdf manual really does a good job of documenting this, and it is consistent with many other apps that have the notion of "grouping" objects. That is, to create a group, a selection of at least two items must be made. (I tried this in Word and some drawing programs I have. With no selection, the "group" tools are disabled.)

I will bring this thread to the attention of our doc team.

Peter

... or leave it all ungrouped until you render it to your final medium/a.

If all you originally wanted to do was 'drop in' new stuff, live, at the end ( or anywhere for that matter), then 'Split', put the cursor back a bit, 'Control Click' on the bit to be replaced to Select, Arm , and hit Record.

The existing bit will be played, until it hits the 'selected' part which will have another 'take' recorded over it.

You are right, the manual isn't quite as clear as it could be - especially for such a routine operation. Well .... it wasn't several versions ago which was when I last consulted it on the topic !

geoff

Peter
Some notes for the manual team

In my mind if I was reading / searching the manual for the first time, a group would imply that I have a bunch of video clips grouped together.

most people would not consider 1 video clip that has audio attached "a group"

they would consider it a video clip with audio

So I think the problem lies in the usage of the word group.

Some notes for the manual team

I don't know what to tell you. We have been using this terminology for years, this is the first I have heard of any problems with it.

Vegas has always strived to treat audio and video content/events in the same way. That is part of what users have always liked about our approach. Where difference demand a different approach, we do what is right. The grouping of events is just that: Grouping of events, regardless of their fundamental type.

Grouping is intentially orthogonal across events. It is an important workflow to 'group' together video and audio events. This is an accepted approach in general, if not specifically to media type applications. For example:

You can create a seperate 'box', a line, and a text object in a drawing programing . They are different types of 'media', but can be 'grouped' so that they are associated/linked together.

Grouping a video event to an audio event is no different, and is consistent with accepted workflows out side of video/audio NLE applications.

I have forwarded this thread to our documentation manager. He is always interested in comments and suggestions by our user base.

Peter

Peter,
I agree with your observation wholeheartedly.

Back when Vegas 2 was the thing, and I was as new to NLE as the OP (who lives just up the road from here), I was trying to do exactly the same thing. Tried searching for "unlock events" (and found out that meant something else), but I soon discovered if I right-clicked on an event, a number of options came up. My "Ahha!" moment came when I saw the word "Group." Haven't looked back since.

Thanks for the help! The thing that challenged me was that "Ungroup" was probably the last term that would ever have occurred to me. I tried lots of other terms, but not "Group" or variations. I know that every software manufacturer deals with this - words have very different connotations to different people.

But if you've never used edit software before, it doesn't matter whether Sony has used the same term for 10 years. But I very much appreciate all the helpful responses!

For Help, I generally use the online help (Help > Contents & Index) and so far I find that I can find what I need about 1 time in 10. The problem isn't that it's not there, it's that I'm a newbie and absolutely none of the terms which are intuitive to me seem to be used in Sony's programs.

I'll learn over time, but so far it takes me an average of about 90 minutes to make an edit that requires 15 seconds to execute. I've been trying for two hours to hide a jump cut by making a transition take place, and so far no luck. Somehow I've also inserted a loop and can't get rid of it, either. (Try looking for "Delete Loop" and you'll see what I mean...nothing in the index or the search.)

New software is often a good excuse for strong drink.

But if you've never used edit software before, it doesn't matter whether Sony has used the same term for 10 years.

I would highly recommend you download and read the Vegas Pro Users Manual. It will present common terminology and workflows that will assit you in your learning.

Understanding the terminology and the context of the language will make your efforts worthwhile. You find that communicating on these forums with the accepted Vegas terms will also get you faster and more complete responses.

There is a good book written by Douglas Spotted Eagle called

Vegas Pro 9 Editing Workshop

If you can find:
Vegas 6 Revealed: The Official Guide

by Doug Sahlin

I thought it was very good also.

Both are more video centric, but the audio portions are good.

Peter

"It is an important workflow to 'group' together video and audio events. This is an accepted approach in general, if not specifically to media type applications."

This has been an issue for me with Vegas since V4.
Sound and vision from a camera should be treated differently. It is In Sync or Locked. Relying on the current grouping mechanism to keep it in sync is flawed. The offset indication added sometime ago makes some concession to this oversight however it is not reliable and it really is a bandaid solution especially compared to how other NLEs handle camera originated sound and vision.

"Grouping a video event to an audio event is no different, and is consistent with accepted workflows out side of video/audio NLE applications."

Not really. The use of grouping in other kinds of applications is more sophisticated, generally it permits groups of groups in a hierachial structure. Implementing this would address some of the issues with the current approach however I think it'd create a messy GUI.

Bob.

Grouping is not intended to keep things in sync, but to maintain a media or user define associations.

If you have specific suggestions for such problems you are presented, I recommend you submit a formal feature request.

If you have specific problems that you cannot solve, you should contact our tech support and discuss the problem so that a formal issues is created.

Of course, please post your ideas/problems here. I would love to understand the problems and workflows you desire. The more details the better.

Sound and vision from a camera should be treated differently. It is In Sync or Locked. Relying on the current grouping mechanism to keep it in sync is flawed. The offset indication added sometime ago makes some concession to this oversight however it is not reliable and it really is a bandaid solution especially compared to how other NLEs handle camera originated sound and vision

Treated differently how?

Flawed in what way? Be specific. An example or two would prove useful.

Can you provide and example of how othe NLEs do this better and what their workflows offer specifically that Vegas does not?

The use of grouping in other kinds of applications is more sophisticated, generally it permits groups of groups in a hierachial structure. Implementing this would address some of the issues with the current approach however I think it'd create a messy GUI.

What apps are you talking about?

Groups with in Groups == hierachial approach?

If not, please explain.

What issues would be addressed?

I look forward to your opinions and alternatives.

Peter

"Treated differently how?"

Simplest answer that comes to mind would be to treat sound and vision from a camera tape / file as one event. The same as the L and R channels in a stereo wave file. The link between sound and vision from a camera is as intimate as the two channels of audio in a stereo file.


"Flawed in what way? Be specific. An example or two would prove useful."

Sound and vision captured from a camera should stay as is, it was in sync when the tape was recorded and it would only be in extraordinary circumstances that the relationship between them would need to be changed. Let's take a talking head as an example.

I capture the tape, drop it onto the timeline, the sound and vision is grouped. I add a track of background music and some text to highlight points the talking head is making. I then Group all these tracks. Good so far, everything stays together.
I want to move a couple of titles or the background music. I click Ignore Even Grouping and now every event is Ungrouped and I can slide sound and vision out of sync. This I should not be able to do, why would I want to create such a mess.
Alternatively I Ungroup all the events, same thing happens, the relationship between the sound and vision that originated on the camera is lost. I cannot Ungroup just the events that I added to the original group of camera sound and vision.

Another problem that arises. I have tapes from two cameras (A,B) of the same performance. I sync and group them. I then split them. The sound and vision from camera A stays grouped as does the sound and vision from camera B on both sides of the split however only on the left side of the split does camera A and B remain grouped. The grouping I created is gone on the RH side of the split.

"Can you provide and example of how othe NLEs do this better"

Been a while since I used Premier however to slip sync between sound and vision from a camera one has to go through a very specific process to unlock them, then one can adjust sync and then lock them back again. Nothing else will permit them to get out of sync.

"What apps are you talking about?"

Simplest that comes to mind, MS Word's drawing editor. Create a number of objects, text, a circle, a box. Group them. Create another few objects, group them. I now have two groups. Select both and group them. I now have one group that behaves as on entity. Ungroup it and I am back to the two groups of objects.

"Groups with in Groups == hierachial approach?"

Yes.

"If you have specific suggestions for such problems you are presented, I recommend you submit a formal feature request."

A fair point however without having a discussion such as this it's difficult to know what to suggest.

Bob.

Simplest answer that comes to mind would be to treat sound and vision from a camera tape / file as one event. The same as the L and R channels in a stereo wave file. The link between sound and vision from a camera is as intimate as the two channels of audio in a stereo file.

The ideal scenario Bob mentioned only comes close to existing, if;
a) All cams in a shoot are synced by free-run T/C and genlocked, which describes but a small percentage of the work I (and I suspect others) do, or;
b) You are talking only about the reference cam track in a multicam shoot, in which case it is desirable to "lock down" the audio/video grouping for that cam only, or;
c) One only does single cam shoots, with no audio sources other than that being fed into the cam.

Sound and vision captured from a camera should stay as is, it was in sync when the tape was recorded and it would only be in extraordinary circumstances that the relationship between them would need to be changed.

Rather than "extraordinary circumstances" substitute "everyday occurrence" for me. The abilitiy to make subframe adjustments to the audio tracks from various cams is absolutely vital to my workflow. I used to do this manually by ungrouping, aligning the audio, and regrouping, but now Pluraleyes beta does it even better. The result of either approach of course, is some "pink events," which I consider plenty of "notice" that I have made a shift. If I inadvertently shifted an audio event by leaving Ignore Event Grouping "On," it is a mouse-click operation to move it back into place, which is hardly an inconvenience or cause for confusion.

If the cams are of different makes, it is even common in my workflow to split those tracks into ten minute chunks for better alignment with the reference cam track, even shifting the video as much as one frame/hour to overcome drift and maintain closer to "ideal" sync. If you don't know what I mean, try running a Sony SD and a Panny SD together for an hour of taping and see how they come out . . .

Consider the alternative of having each camera's audio and video tracks forever and hopelessly conjoined. Would the solution for multicam shoots then be to turn Off "Quantize to Frames" and permit the video frames to be out of kilter for the sake of the audio? Certainly not considered a "best practice" in this editor's playbook.

If one has only T/C and genlocked cameras at one's shoots, as any real professional would insist on, it is easy to see the lack of rationale for having the video and audio from any given cam available as separate tracks. However, to deny the rest of us that ease and ability would be counterintuitive and make Vegas totally useless for fully 70% of the work I do.

In fact, check the audio tracks from two identically-sourced XL H1As that are free-run T/C synced and genlocked. You will find that the audio drifts by a few ms at any given point. Isn't it an advantage to be able to slide the audio a bit to prevent audio glitches while maintaining video sync during tape changes?

Grouping is not intended to keep things in sync, but to maintain a media or user define associations

I don't know that this could be said more clearly.
I like the grouping function just fine the way it is, but with added support for one of Bob's big suggestions:

"Groups with in Groups == hierachial approach?"
Perhaps a bit too ambitious, but an idea worth tucking under the developers' hats.

You seem to have missed the core point. Nothing wrong with how grouping works. The problem arises because it's also used to keep sound and vision from a camera in sync.
99.999% of the time an editor correctly assumes it is in sync because that's simply what cameras do. If yours doesn't, get it fixed or get a better camera. If you want it sample accurate even with genlock I think you'll find video cameras fall short of the mark. There are times when it's not in sync e.g. when the sound source is a long way from the camera and indeed some mechanism is needed to offset sound and vision from a camera. That's a given. The one time I did think something was wrong with sound and vision sync and I 'fixed' it I actually got it wrong, some opera singers do wierd things with their mouths. There was a few embarrasing moments with the client over that one.
On the other hand a few times I have slipped sync by mistake and I didn't realise it until the client came back complaining. Getting this wrong is a big mistake and Vegas facilitates getting it wrong by having no mechanism to lock sound and vision from a camera aside from Grouping which is also used for other tasks.
Even with multicam, yes of course the sync relationship between cameras is arbitary, even with genlocked cameras audio might not be sample accurate. Of course I want to slide camera A and Camera B and C and D along the timeline. At the same time I want those camera's audio recordings to stay in sync with their vision. If due to the slow speed of sound I need to offset sound and vision from one camera then indeed I need a mechanism to to slip it, I'd like a mechanism to lock it once corrected and something that 'stuck' outside of Grouping. It'd be nice if the offset indicator took this into account also.

Bob.