It doesn't look physically different. I was assuming that dual layer or double sided would look different. NO?

A dual sided would look physically different (recording surface on both sides) while a dual layer is one sided just like DVD-/+R but has two layers. Try compressing your 4hrs down to fit on a DVDR, it will lose quality but it still may be acceptable to you.

Dual Sided... would not have printing on either side.

Dual Layer... harder to tell.

What was the movie..? I can do some research and let you know.

If you want to do it right, put your 2 VHS Movies on 2 DVDs using Vegas. Assuming you have a deck or camera that will allow "pass through".

If you don't care, than put them both on 1 DVD. They won't look very good, but hey, you saved a dollar or 2.

Depending on the source...it is possible to fit 4 hours of video on a DVD and still have it look very good.

If the discussion were for 6 hours....well, then that would definately be pushing it. But such a blanket statement that 4 hours will look like crap is not correct.

You really need to experiment with your equipment, your time and your resources...and see what the finished product looks like to you.

"But such a blanket statement that 4 hours will look like crap is not correct."

To get 240 mins in a DVD... at 4.3G max... the bit rate would run about.. 2.19

SVCD quality runs about 2.6....

Nuff Said.

Box532....I'm not disputing technicality of bitrates being dropped when optimizing to fit more video on a CD.

I am, however, disputing the blanket statement that the video would be generally poor.

I have in my hot little hand (well on my desk...that is) a DVD I produced with 4 one hour long video programs on it. They are of one of my favorite TV shows that I collect and keep in my library (much like folks use to do with VHS but now do with Tivo).

I have played this disc on all my PCs, both TV top DVD players, took it over to my mothers house and played it on her DVD player, as well as my brothers PS2. In evey instance - the video was very sharp...very clean and no one could tell the difference in the optimization.

But then again - I started off with crystal clear source material - and during my editing I lost no quality.

So....again...to sum up....it is very possible to fit 4 hours of video on a DVD and have the quality be satisfactory (if not darn good)....depending on your definitionof good and the quality of the source material.

Merry Christmas to all and to all "Whachoo Talkin 'bout, Willis?"

Agree. If you have a powerful PC and the Main Concept ver 1.4 and use double pass you will get acceptable 4 hours VHS quality. If I have free time I'll make a short clip and email it to you. It takes a long, long time to render but if you really need to get that much time on a single disc it is doable.

Peter

Quotingt kameronj>>>>"Depending on the source..."<<<<<

........you need to read the orginal post. He said these were "Home Movies" on 2 "VHS" tapes. To me that means they are just that. Home Movies recorded on VHS, or VHSC. Or worse copied from VHS, 8mm or 8mm film.

I've had my share of Home Movies shot on VHS tapes and trying to transfer them to DVDs. Most use the cheapest tapes they can find, and than record in the EP mode. And some never use a light. I do not know how the Home Movies were shot. But for the last 3 + years, my experience has been generally the same........poor quality, and they want to put it on one DVD. It does not work, I don't care how many encode passes you make.

And yes, I can take my DV/DVCAM footage I've shot and produce very good DVDs even when the extend over 2 hrs. But not when it is shot under candlelight conditions.

Ed

Hi EdK,

Sorry to ask for clarification old son, but what is the correlation between the esthetic quality of the image and data rate vis-a-vis what will fit on a single disc?

I have one of those Sony RDR-GX7 VCR type DVD recorders and can choose to put from 60 to 360 minutes (360 minutes being six <6> hours) on one DVD-R. I suggest Sony's engineers through their product refute your statement that, "no matter how many encoding passes...it can't be done..."

You certainly can fit a fair amount of material on a single disc--but it does depend on how much you are willing to compromise with regards to image degradation. The more you want to fit on a disc, the lower the average bitrate with have to be. The lower the bitrate, the higher the compression of the original material will be, resulting in progressive loss of image quality. If you are willing to accept mpeg1, you can fit nearly 8 hours on a single disc. If you start with a very high qualtiy original (like uncompressed footage, which most of us don't), then the results can be quite good. If you start out with a poor original, like old home movies (on older, relatively poorer quality tape) taken on old technology camcorders (and worse yet, taken in EP mode as noted above), then high compression settings will result in some pretty awful looking mpeg files. I find old originals like these to be difficult to encode and look good, even with top notch encoders.

When people quote 'VHS' quality, it's often used to describe what you get with half D1 or mpeg1 encoding. Unfortunately that is misleading, because the only way to really achieve such a result is to start out with a high quality original (you have a bit more to play with if the content is less taxing--like talking heads vs action/high motion). It was originally used to describe the quality of VCD's, which use mpeg1. In the far east, VCD's are much more popular, and they are widely available for Hollywood movies. They are created from high qualtiy originals (film), and mpeg1 from such a pristine original will indeed look as good as, if not better, then VHS. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear--in other words, you can't start out with VHS (certainly much worse than a film original) and highley compress it and expect it to look just like it did before you did all that.

Jim

Jim,

I agree with you. One of my sidelines is recording VHS tapes to DVD-R with my GX7 for the low, low price of 29.95 CAD/T120, c/w automatic chapter points and that's about it. I tell people at the outset that transferring third generation VHS to DVD will not enhance the quality. Most don't care. Most tapes are T120s but I get the occasional PAL from Poland that is T240 in PAL SP (really!!) and they want the whole tape on a single disc, to save 29.95 CAD. My transcoder is pretty decent but the end result does look like crap in 4 hour mode. However, they don't care, just want to view it as NTSC.

Peter

Ed,

Yes, I would tend to agree regarding the source regarding home movies on VHS. But we are generally saying the same thing (i.e. depending on the source).

I have tons of home movies on VHS tape that are crystal clear....but that is because I transfered from digital video. So...if I were to re-digitize from the VHS to my HD through my capture card - I'm starting off with a relatively good source.

Albeit the footage that was shot on a Camcorder circa 1983 is poor lighting will most likely turn out crappy doing the optimization thing.

Anyway.....here is hoping all had a wonderful Christmas, or Chanuka or Kwanzaa or any other expression of a happy holiday!

Ciao for now

The source material is THE key issue. Uncompressed footage/film best > DV>Digital 8>Hi8>SVHS>VHS(newer than 1990)>VHS(older than 1990). Standard record modes will always be better than extended play. Any conversion of a 'better' format to a lesser will result in a generational loss. Copying a good DV original to VHS should look pretty good, but if you played them back side by side you would even see the difference. A direct conversion of the original DV material to mpeg would look better than using the VHS copy to do the encoding from. "Better" is a relative term, and what any one individual is willing to accept as 'good enough' is the acid test. Digital to VHS to mpeg D1/mpeg1 may be just fine for some, and if that's the case, then by all means cram as much as you can per disc. I taped the Tour de France this past summer, and converted it to mpeg1 and put it on a couple of dvd's (about 8 hours per disc). I watch it on the treadmill (will try anything to motivate me). It looks pretty good on that TV, and for my purposes, is just fine. Watching it on my bigger screen, the artifacts are readily seen. I have a couple of old family tapes from the 1980's. I worked hard on filters and encode parameters and pushed the bitrate to get as good an encode as possible with such a poor (relatively speaking) original. I used Procoder with a CBR setting of 8000. You can only do about an hour with that high of a setting with CBR, but the quality was worth it.

The original poster has about 4 hours of family video. My bet is that there is probably less than four hours total, if some editing was done (eliminating pauses, filming of the back of the lens cap and the like). I wouldn't do a direct encode from analog hook up to mpeg (which is an option he posted). The mpeg encoders (IMO) with these sorts of direct convertors are fair at best. I would transfer to HD as DV (which is minimally compressed), edit out what you don't want in an NLE like Vegas, and then decide if you want to put it all on one disc, or two. Put the material on two discs if you want the best quality, or compress it down for one disc if you don't mind the quality trade off. The last point I would make here is that the world is moving (albeit somewhat slowly) to higher definition, not lessor. I can tell you that displaying mpeg1 or half D1, or highly compressed full D1 looks pretty bad on HD screens. If you are transferring your movies to dvd to 'archive' your old family videos, then I would not take a route that will be obsolete in a couple of years.

One other option might be to wait for the dual layer media to arrive (and burners), and edit your material down enough that you won't have to decide between quality vs quantity.

Jim

>>>"I have one of those Sony RDR-GX7 VCR type DVD recorders and can choose to put from 60 to 360 minutes (360 minutes being six <6> hours) on one DVD-R"<<<<

Just to clarify, again........just because you can put 4 hours, 6 hours or whatever on a 4.7GB DVD, does not mean you should do it. Lets put it another way, would you record a wedding ceremony using a VHS tape in the EP mode? If you would, than my statements are meaningless to you.

Hopefully you have read the posts from JSWTS, he says it better than I.