You don't want to convert them to another format. You want to edit with them on the timeline. They are MPEG2, and that is a perfectly editable format.

As far as 480x270, you're hitting the difference between screen aspect ratio (SAR) and pixel aspect ratio (PAR). First, Vegas is doing the right thing, so just take a deep breath and relax. SD video uses the same 720x480 pixels for both 4:3 standard and 16:9 widescreen. In the first case the pixels are slightly narrower than they are tall, in the latter they are significantly wider than they are tall. I could show you all the math, but it's often better to just let it be.

"32" refers to the pixel bit depth, not the frame rate. Each pixel needs 32 bits; 8 for each color, and 8 more bits for an alpha channel.

i vs. p merely means that while Vegas detects that your source video is interlaced, you may have your project set up for progressive or vice versa.

Project settings are there to help you get the best experience while editing, and possibly help you judge what the final output will be. Render settings are what are used when you create the finished output. These two things don't necessarily have to have any relationship to each other but i find it's good to have them match closely. That way while you're editing you see what will happen in the output and won't get surprised later. Often the advice is to match the project settings to the source media so you get the most efficient frame rate playback. I suppose that's ok, but as i'm only going to do this edit once, and (hopefully) many people will watch the output many times, i'd rather cater to having the output look good than having my editing experience be a tiny bit smoother.

" They are MPEG2, and that is a perfectly editable format."

Unfortunately 'No' in case of SD resolution MPEG2s.
Having so many MPGs will make Vegas trouble working with this formats. A highly recommended to render them to AVI DV at least.
(update: other than DV, intermediary editing format such as MJPEG is more preferable, to keep maintaining the quality)**

Same result happened while working with Sony camcorders still having ability to record in standard definition resolution format of MPEG2.


*Gary James, never knew before that I can import ifo and the file is automatically merged! - thanks.
**thanks for correction below

FWIW...

DVD-spec mpg2 video files = .m2v. Same files with timing data & optional audio = .mpg -- note that this is the format Sony apps prefer, e.g. you'll get better results importing video only mpg2 as .mpg. DVD-spec mpg2 video, DVD-spec audio tracks [usually AC3], graphical sub tracks [.sup], + cell timing info are all combined into the .VOB files in the VIDEO_TS folder on a DVD, usually split into 1 GB pieces when/if a .VOB file > ~1 GB. DVD authoring apps, e.g. DVDA, mux spec video, audio, subs, & cell timing into .VOB files.

To combine separate, sequential .VOB files into one .VOB file, one convenient method is to use DVD Shrink to copy the DVD without re-encoding or re-compressing with single VOB set in preferences. To strip a .VOB file or set of .VOB files into component parts, i.e. 1 .m2v, however many AC3 tracks etc., PGCDemux works fast/well. To make a .m2v into video-only .mpg, mux without supplying an audio track, e.g. using TMPGEnc Mpeg Tools.

While it used to be possible to teach Vegas to recognize .VOB files -- may still be possible -- IMO that serves little if any purpose; just had to add the .VOB extension to Vegas alongside .mpg in the registry. Vegas like most apps will not edit AC3 natively, nor will it perform cut edits on .VOB or .mpg files without re-encoding as well as alternatives, e.g. Womble apps, & the extra streams in a .VOB file just add a bit of extra burden to Vegas if/when you do import them to the timeline. If you want to edit a .VOB in Vegas, import the .VOB's .mpg as well as the AC3 converted to .wav or .w64 beforehand & do it right.If you want to re-encode a .VOB in Vegas to DVD-spec mpg2, import & re-encode the .mpg, then mate it back up with the original AC3 in a new .VOB set. If you want to encode a .VOB to AVC/AAC, IMO you're better off skipping Vegas entirely unless you want/need to edit -- ffmpeg rippers/converters are faster and, using x264, often as good as if not better quality.

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RE: refer to book etc... The DVD spec costs a lot of $ & comes with a strict NDA -- most of what you can/will learn comes from folks reverse engineering DVDs, & so is spread around the web. That said, check out sites like videohelp.com.

RE: project, media, render settings etc... Vegas acts linearly -- import a video, re-size it in project properties, render to the original size, & Vegas tends to size the video rather than output it the way it is. So, in a nutshell, set properties to render size etc. if you want to send the encoder just the data it needs, set properties to match the source if that's what you want to send the encoder -- sometimes the encoder might re-size better etc., sometimes Vegas. Source field order can often be found using the Media Info app -- otherwise check a preferably action sequence frame by frame with de-interlace off for your display.

RE: frame rates, sizes, interlace, pulldown etc. research on-line as there's not enough space here to reply properly. Same goes for aspect ratios, non-square pixels, anamorphic video & so on. Easiest is to use Media Info to find out what you've got with your source, then match it yourself in properties.

RE: just playing .VOB files, depends on what you've got installed in Windows, what version of Windows you've got, & how it's set up. Again, head over to videohelp.com & start reading. :)

> "Having so many MPGs will make Vegas trouble working with this formats. A highly recommended to render them to AVI DV at least."

Shouldn't be giving problems if everything's set up properly. If you have to re-encode to an intermediary, use something like mjpeg or for HD the UT Video codec .

It won't be "so many" MPEGs. It will be as many as there were VOB files on the disc, which is probably not many at all.

I'd also highly recommend against rendering them to DV, since that involves color space conversions and lossy recompression. Much better to just use the DVD material directly in the project rather than suffer the additional losses.

I'm thinking a lot of the advice about not using VOB/MPEG on the timeline comes from folks who have last tried this on computers from 10 years ago and Vegas version 2. It's not a problem anymore. It edits as slick as melted butter these days. If you have a computer that can handle AVCHD even minimally, DVD source files won't make your computer flex even it's pinky muscles.

Thanks for additional input - corrected the post above...

Oh, i wouldn't say that an MPEG intermediary is preferable to DV. As far as intermediaries go MPEG is a poor choice compared to AVI in many situations. The whole point is that *NO* intermediary is the best situation, when the editing system can handle it, but if one needs an intermediary, one should choose one that requires the least conversion. Choosing an intermediary type requires considering the source format, the editing software and hardware capability, the purpose of the video, and how it will be output. You can't make a blanket statement that one is the best and others aren't.

In the case of editing DVD content, there is no need for one at all. When i say edit with MPEG on the timeline, that's only *because* the source files from the DVD are MPEG. No conversion necessary.

Oh, Vegas 2 works just fine with MPEG-2 -- just not on a 500 Mhz processor.
;?)

"Vegas like most apps will not edit AC3 natively, nor will it perform cut edits on .VOB or .mpg files without re-encoding"

@mikkie, if you import your VOBs using the technique I described, you have full playback and editing capability of your DVDs video and audio streams (whatever the audio format AC3 or PCM). Just keep in mind that alternate audio streams such as multichannel can only exist on a DVD as alternate audio. So these can't be imported via the IFO import technique.

There is one other limitation on importing via IFOs. If your DVD was authored with all video titles (intro, special features, main title, etc) in a single VTS, and your main video title was not physically laid-out as the first asset in the VTS, what you'll get after importing is whatever was the first asset in the VTS. However, if your DVD was authored with everything in separate VTSs, simply import the appropriate VTS IFO. Sony's DVDA automatically places every video title in a separate VTS. And every commercial DVD I've looked at is authored with the main video title as the first asset in the VTS.

---

One other thing. IFO import is supported in other Sony products. Sound Forge Pro v10 supports it, but like Sony Vegas it's also undocumented.

>"I'm thinking a lot of the advice about not using VOB/MPEG on the timeline comes from folks who have last tried this on computers from 10 years ago and Vegas version 2. It's not a problem anymore. It edits as slick as melted butter these days. If you have a computer that can handle AVCHD even minimally, DVD source files won't make your computer flex even it's pinky muscles."

I agree as far as mpg2 -- just don't see a good reason to put .VOBs on the time-line, but if that's what you want to do have at it. As far as AVCHD & mpg2, not sure why they'd be related. [Working with AVCHD, like mpg2 years ago, depends on what you've got installed for hard/software, not CPU brute horsepower, e.g. my Droid tablet handles AVC much better than it does mpg2.] Opening .mpg/.VOB [or AVC/mpg2 .m2ts] files on the timeline takes longer if there are AC3 audio tracks as waveforms are drawn etc., & during editing/encoding they can make Vegas 11 Pro *slightly* sluggish compared to video only [or .wav/w64] versions on the timeline -- FWIW that's on reasonably current hardware with an i7 2600k, SSD etc.

>"Oh, i wouldn't say that an MPEG intermediary is preferable to DV. As far as intermediaries go MPEG is a poor choice compared to AVI in many situations...."

Not sure what you're saying there, Kelly.

Traditional mjpeg [motion jpeg] like that from picvid, or using the UT Video codec can produce avi files without the limitations of the DV spec, without the potential drawbacks from many 3rd party DV codecs, & are just generally more agreeable to work with IMHO than DV, but again only if you *must* use an intermediate. For mpg2 there's generally no reason to not use mpg2 -- again IMHO, mpg2 is often underrated.


>"@mikkie, if you import your VOBs using the technique I described, you have full playback and editing capability of your DVDs video and audio streams (whatever the audio format AC3 or PCM)."

Not disagreeing, just don't see a good reason why you'd want to -- I guess I'm assuming if you want to use a quality tool like Vegas Pro you'd want the best results out of it or else you'd use much cheaper [often free] alternatives. For editing, if you want to do cut edits without Any re-encoding, Womble apps or something like Cuttermaran do better -- Vegas Pro 9 I think was the last version that really did pass through mpg2 without re-encoding, while later versions only pass most of it. For regular or cut edits AC3 is problematic -- it's the nature of the spec's packets. You can also convert AC3 to .wav or .w64 better outside of Vegas than in it -- check it out by comparing the .wav files you get from AC3 outside of Vegas with the .wav files Vegas produces from AC3.

SO if you want to edit something in VOBs, *if* quality [& sync] matters, take the 3 minutes or so to strip the components out of the .VOB-set, spend the 2 minutes or less converting AC3 to .wav/.w64, spend ~3 more minutes muxing the .m2v to .mpg, & import everything to the timeline. Or for cut edits do the dirty work if/when you put the edited version to DVD... DVDs play cell play-lists -- not titles -- so by adding cells [chapters] at your in/out points, then deleting the cells from that play-list, you accomplish much the same thing without any fuss, re-encoding etc. If/when you want to use DVDA, edit the cell play-list(s) in the results on hdd using PGC Edit.

RE: possibly worrying about importing the correct .IFO file... DVD Shrink, or it's successor, Nero Recode, can be great tools to preview, isolate, trim, &/or drop tracks from Video DVD Titles, all without re-encoding anything.

Sorry to be so late getting back to this. Given your answers, I know a lot more about this technology now. I'm also a lot closer to having the right workflow for my task. For example, I know I should edit the VOB (or IFO) file in Vegas directly. And I know a good target output for my purpose will be MP4. I also know that the render settings are more or less independent of the Project Properties - but I suspect only more or less (see below).

However, in repeated testing of quite a number of alternatives (all based on the VOB/IFO source, I have found that: while the following two render choices are tied for the clearest output (as determined by whether you can see a tiny movement in a particular signer's eyeball), and both have the identical filesize for the tested example), only the second one can show successfully on my underpowered Win XP PC. On that PC, all the MP4's either show in completely weird psychodelic colors or they have to pause midstream (I assume for loading the portion of video not yet shown), then rush through to completion at too fast a rate (a jerky appearance). The clip being tested is just 2 seconds long. All the clips show beautifully on my Mac and on one of my two 64-bit Win 7 PCs, although they have somewhat too-reddish colors on my other 64-bit Win 7 PC - which has a cheaper monitor. The underpowered Win XP PC has the identical brand and model monitor as the Win 7 PC where the clips show as beautifully as on the Mac.

(1) MainConcept – Apple iPod 640x480.mp4 (29.970 fps, Progressive, NTSC Square pixel, Profile=baseline, Variable bit rate with two passes; no audio included) --> Resulting in 1,763 bit rate

(2) Quicktime - NTSC Standard 720x480.mov (29.970 fps, Progressive, PAR .9090, Video format=Sorenson Video 3, 24 bpp color, Data rate=Basic with target 360 Kbps; no audio included) --> Resulting in 3,890 bit rate

An aside: This seems odd if filesize is determined by nothing but bit rate and length in seconds; both files are 952 KB and the same length in seconds despite the difference in bit rate. (I can send you the clips if you don't believe me.) And just for my education: is the degraded behavior of my MP4's because that codec has to do more work to translate their fewer bits per second into a picture?

Anyway, going with choice (2) above, there may still be some parameters I need to set, keeping in mind that the video clips should be best for (a) showing from a CD, DVD, or one's hard drive; and (b) showing over the internet.

On other evidence (mainly letter-boxing and pillar-boxing results), the Render settings do not seem ENTIRELY independent of Project Properties to me. For what it's worth, based on Match Project Settings, my originals are 720x480x32, 29.970 fps, 8-bit pixels, Interlaced (upper field first), PAR .9091, NTSC DV.

But what Project Properties may still matter, if any? I presume Delacing method is irrelevant if I go with progressive scan. But what about motion blur? Right now I'm going with Gaussian.

And one more education question if you please: You've explained that when you crop, you get the same number of pixels that had previously covered the cropped area. But what happens when you render that cropped area to an output of the same dimensions as the original? I assume it's not just bigger pixels, thus turning an original designation of 640x480 (say) into a lie of sorts. So I'm guessing the result could be somewhat lossy. But is there a fair chance it could sometimes turn out to be MORE ACCURATE? After all, I assume the original choice of pixel colors was itself a compromise, even if it was a compromise made implicitly by the camera hardware itself rather than software. So when the rendering software produces its result, is there no chance it could actually wind up putting back a lot of what had to compromised away in the first place?

We're almost there. Thanks again for your help.

Peyton

mikkie, one really good reason to put VOB mpeg files on the timeline is if that's the source format you have. There's no reason to take a quality or time hit converting to some other format first. True, if you already have an alternate and superior format then by all means use it. But if all you have is the DVD as the source, then it's preferable to use it as it is rather than converting it.

Peyton, when you crop and render, Vegas resizes the cropped image to match the output size. So if you crop down to, say 360x240 and then render to 720x480 then yes, the pixels do become twice as big. Vegas tries to smooth this out some so it won't look so jaggy and yes, the net result is some loss of quality. It won't be more accurate as there's no way for Vegas to regenerate information that wasn't there in the source.

Currently trying this method with vegas 18 on some old dvds with family video. Im able to import the vobs to vegas but I am not getting an audio track. The audio on my discs is AC-3