How to...multi camera and multitrack audio?

luces1 wrote on 11/4/2013, 6:50 PM
Hello everyone. I have been a LONG time Sony software user(Acid,SF),but I have VERY LITTLE experience with video,particularly Vegas. I come from a music and audio background and now I would like to get immersed in the video side of things and I want to know what I need to do/purchase in order to accomplish my goal.

I would like to use multiple cameras(one at first,but eventually as many as 3) and also record multitrack audio and I would like to be able to do it directly to a computer in REAL TIME!

1. Is this possible with Vegas Pro?
2.If not,could I please be directed to a product that it is possible?
3. If YES,then what type of hardware(video mainly) will I need?
4.What type of capture card/device will I need?
5.What is the best way to insure that audio syncs tightly with video?

I need/prefer realtime capabilities because I would like to be able to do BASIC editing on the spot and then give the client the product immediately after the event.

I am sure that I will have more questions,but this is a place to start.

Thank you very much to all who take the time to help.



musicvid10 wrote on 11/4/2013, 11:06 PM
You're undoubtedly remembering analog videography days, when the guy would come in with a couple of cameras, a multiplexer and outboard recorder, and edit in realtime, handing you a videocassette at the end of the event.

Handy as that was, it's no longer a practical approach with HD shooting, unless a TV production truck is in your budget. You will acquire to SD cards or hard drives, edit in post, and deliver a rough cut in a day if you're well-versed in multicam editing.
luces1 wrote on 11/5/2013, 2:09 AM
Really! So in this day and age of digital grandiosity,you can't do what I am trying to accomplish!

Hmmmm. BUMMER! Of course I am not after HD just DV,so if that matters,then.....let's hear the suggestions.

Any others?

farss wrote on 11/5/2013, 3:23 AM
1. No.

You can get a 4 channel HD vision switcher for way less than a standard definition one used to cost. I'd be looking at units from Panasonic. The only thing is you need cameras with HD SDI outputs.

Audio can be handled through audio mixers of which there's many reasonably priced units today.

You're also going to need a recorder of some form but again there's heaps of choices available.

5. Vision is likely to be a couple of frames behind sound but there's audio delays available.

If you want an all in one solution for most of what you need to do I'd consider the Odyssey 7Q from Convergent Design.

That unit will record from 4 HD SDI inputs and provide a switched output as well as record an XML file of the edit points, very neat unit.

luces1 wrote on 11/5/2013, 3:34 AM
Thanks for the reply farss.

So how about just using ONE camera?

Is Vegas an option for that?

farss wrote on 11/5/2013, 5:10 AM
Vegas can record HD from one camera either via firewire or with the appropriate hardware via HD-SDI.

I see no advantage in doing this though and a major downside, risk.

Why not simply record in camera as per normal and take an output from the camera to a hardware DVD recorder.

For software solutions you could also look to products from Newtek and Black Magic Design. Both of those though use a lot of application specific hardware. When you're doing things like switching cameras and doing fades between cameras you need the right physical human interface, forget doing this with just a keyboard and mouse.

Chienworks wrote on 11/5/2013, 7:03 AM
Vegas can't allow editing the video while you're recording; it's merely a straight data transfer. After the recording is done you then load the video on to the timeline and do whatever editing you desire, which will then have to be rendered to a new output file. Even with the latest fastest hardware this is still probably going to take at least as long as the event. You'll then have to output it in some fashion, such as burn to DVD, which will also take some time.

Vegas simply is not, and was never intended as, a real time, as you record, editing solution. Not even with a single camera. You need dedicated hardware for that. There are solutions, but they're not software. Even still, i prefer the option to do all the editing in post where you'll have the opportunity to review and fix your mistakes. Mixing multiple cameras to a single output stream in real time means once it's recorded, it's done and there's no going back.

Personally, for an introductory low-ball budget setup, what i would do is offer the client the rough unedited version which can be made in near real time and handed over minutes after the event, and then offer a clean edited version to be delivered the next day. I've done this with almost every concert i've recorded, though of course those have all been audio-only recordings.
dlion wrote on 11/5/2013, 7:58 AM
i think you're looking for a video mixer or switcher. would allow multiple video sources, real-time switching between video sources, record the output stream...
rs170a wrote on 11/5/2013, 8:32 AM
If you want to blow your budget, look into something like a Newtek Tricaster 460 ($20,000.00 + accessories).
It's a 4 camera device that will record the show as well as record each camera individually for "fixing it in post".
You'll still need an outboard audio recorder of some kind (for example, JoeCo) if you want to do the same thing with your audio but it can be done.

fp615 wrote on 11/5/2013, 9:15 AM

thank you for the link to the tricaster. I won't buy it, of course, but I learned some things I didn't know... one of them is that these live mixers are based on "standard" hardware and operating system, windows in this case (can't understand which version).
Other point is the video from the lan stuff, using several different protocols...
rs170a wrote on 11/5/2013, 10:12 AM
@ fp615,
the Tricaster is only one of several different devices designed to do live switching. However, to the best of my knowledge, it's the only one that lets you record individual camera inputs at the same time as recording a live show and allowing you to stream it live. The rest are strictly video and sometimes audio/video switchers.
Other manufacturers include Panasonic, For-A, Ross, Broadcast Pix and Roland, just to name a few.

rraud wrote on 11/5/2013, 10:30 AM
Multiple cameras and the audio recorder will likely not stay in sync for very long without some kind of genlock. The most cost effective way around this is to record a reference audio track (scratch track) to the camera(s) which will facilitate post re-syncing either manually or with PluralEyes. If your experienced w/ audio recording, I'm sure you already know the issues with mic splitters, board feeds and room/audience mics.
rs170a wrote on 11/5/2013, 10:45 AM
Multiple cameras and the audio recorder will likely not stay in sync for very long without some kind of genlock.

Rick (rraud), I beg to differ. I've done several shoots with my department's Tricaster and recorded all audio on separate tracks, most recently using a mixer and a laptop running ProTools (before that it was Vegas and then another piece of audio software but the name escapes me right now). I have never had any problems syncing the audio to the video afterward. Maybe I'm lucky. All I know is that it works for me.
FYI, these shows were anywhere from 1 to 3 hr. long.

luces1 wrote on 11/5/2013, 4:01 PM
WOW! Lots of good info in this thread. Thanks again to everybody who has posted a reply!

D.Anne wrote on 11/5/2013, 4:39 PM
We have been considering something similar for a local theatre that is doing lots of live music and theatrical productions.

I would check out the Black Magic TV Studio ATEM as a low cost alternative to the others mentioned. You will supply your PC for the control application, but the rest of the basic hardware is in the ATEM unit.
set wrote on 11/5/2013, 6:24 PM
I have been using analog SD system with DataVideo SE800 for a while now, but, I'd like to step up for HD resolution as well.
The challenge for being 'low cost', is not just buying this equipment only, but also need to consider the requirement for this 'whole system' is: Cables, Converters, Recorders.

I have similar interest too with these BMD ATEM TV or newer ATEM 4K

Anyone here have been using these switchers?

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rraud wrote on 11/7/2013, 7:54 AM
External Genlock is non-issue with switchers these days.
If 'rs170'a's audio stays in sync for 3 hours w/o a word clock, perhaps the audio in going through the switcher as well... , and the internal clocks are very stable.. or sync expectations are low.
musicvid10 wrote on 11/7/2013, 8:55 AM
The more recent the equipment, the more likely unslaved audio drift will be small, even across brands. This from the original developer of Pluraleyes. Even genlocked devices have "some" drift.
johnmeyer wrote on 11/7/2013, 1:29 PM
The more recent the equipment, the more likely unslaved audio drift will be small, even across brands. This from the original developer of Pluraleyes. If you looked at the new features in iZotope RX3, you'll see that they added tools to detect and correct wow & flutter and other types of speed changes. Since I have bothPluralEyes and RX3, I sent in a feature request to iZotope for them to add a feature in future releases that would let you specify a master audio file, and then use their software to make another take exactly match the speed and pitch of the master at every point in time. They definitely have the technology to do this, if there is the demand and if they have the desire to do it.
musicvid10 wrote on 11/7/2013, 4:03 PM
Adaptive sync to a reference file would be 'da bomb.
So would dynamic range / compression matching between takes.
jason-duncan wrote on 11/8/2013, 11:16 AM
Call me a dinosaur, but i video record a lot of bands using four miniDV cameras, and maybe a Super 8 running at 24fps, no video board. Sort of like the old cine days.Then import the footage to Vegas via Firewire. This gives you the option for different edits/angles of the same show since you will have mulitple cams running. For audio I usually either tap into the soundboard with my digital recorder or the soundguy can either record to a cd or a flash drive if it's a digital board. Remember to record the audio at 16B 48K to help sync with the video (assuming you are shooting SD). Not sure what quantization and sample freq to use HD though.