I need a much for sophisticated DVD authoring program.

farss wrote on 2/12/2004, 11:17 PM

I've bravely stuck with DVDA since it was first released and have been able to make it do enough to keep the clients happy. However they're now asking for stuff well beyond what I think any of the low end authoring apps can do. I'm not just talking multiple audio tracks and subtitles, I need for example to be able to created custom pointers for the menus and the buttons not only need to be animated but have sound effects as the pointer moves over them.

I'm in two minds about trying to go t this level of sophistication. I'd sure like to have a shot at it but I'm kind of feeling that not only will I need to spend big time on the application and invest a fair bit of time learning how to use it but also find that I have to build all the assets outside of the application.

So in the final washup, the cost to the client would have to go up an order of magnitude compared to something I'd do in DVDA and that's before I recover my costs in capital costs and training. Any of the learned gents here have any thoughts on this?

I think the client has seen a very slick demo built in something like Scenarist and expects that I can do the same job but at a much lower price. Maybe I should just walk away from it.

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farss wrote on 2/14/2004, 8:45 AM

OK,
so we've looked authoring apps. Now maybe I've got the whole story mixed up but as I understand it DVD players load and execute code from the DVD. So when we talk about a DVD authoring app we're really talking about something like Dreamweaver, it makes the job of building something rather complex that much easier, fine. But what's to stop one cutting the code oneself, surely this cannot be THAT hard.

From my brief look at DVD Studio Pro, running that in advanced mode that is basically what you are doing or have access to. So unless I'm badly mistaken (and it wouldn't be the first time!) then an authoring app COULD be as simple as a SDK. Now OK there'd have to be a million ways to get yourself into an ocean of grief but you can do the same writing HTML or XML. All the application has to do is build a DVD image like DVDA does and to test it you use any PC based DVD player.

Maestro wrote on 2/14/2004, 10:25 AM

I agree that DVDLab is more of an advanced program and using it properly depends upon the user knowing about the DVD spec in at least a limited way. I looked at DVDLab very heavily when I was looking for authoring apps and actually thought I'd found the panacea authoring tool. I downloaded the trial, and my first DVD wouldn't play in any of my players because of a multiplexing issue with ac3 audio at certain bitrates. Okay, red flag there. Maybe those issues have been resolved, I don't know.

The real reason I abandoned DVDLab as a viable solution was because of its dealings with audio. I noticed that MPEG audio *could* be used on an NTSC project. That's not allowed by the spec. I wrote Oscar and asked him about it, and his reply was, "Well, most newer NTSC DVD players will work with MPEG audio". That sealed it for me. Yes, I indeed know not to mix MPEG audio with an NTSC project for maximum compatibility. The reason I abandoned the software is because there's no telling what other off-spec shortcuts he took in the application we *don't* have control over. Since he seemed to have a laxidasical attitude towards adhering to the DVD specification, I have to agree that it's a great program for home usage, but you're taking a big gamble putting it on players you don't know.

-Brent

Jay Gladwell wrote on 2/14/2004, 10:49 AM

Just my opinion, here... nothing more, nothing less. I promise to be brief!

First point; I don't make any more money on a job for a client by creating a fancy-smancy DVD menu than by not doing so. I make my money on creating the best looking video product I can. Then, the delivery system (tape, DVD, web) had better present that video in such a way that it looks as good as the finished master does. That's where I make my money. I'm selling my time/talents as a videographer/editor, i.e., filmmaker, not a DVD author or menu programmer.

Second point; when I buy a movie on DVD, for example, I'm buying the movie, not a fancy, convoluted menu that requires click after click after click to get anywhere. I hate having to wait for some goofy animated menu that doesn't know when to stop (that should have never started to begin with!). I just want to watch the movie, not drull over a menu. My favorite DVDs are the ones with the most simple, straight-forward menus.

Third and final point; I am a firm believer and follower of the Bahaus theory--form follows function. What is the function of a DVD menu, anyway? That should, according to the theory, guide us in the direction as to how a DVD menu ought to be designed. I just happen to agree. Many won't. That's okay.

This is in no way a criticism of anything anyone else has said. Nor it is a criticism of what others prefer or enjoy. It's simply one other person's two cents tossed into the kitty.

J--

filmy wrote on 2/14/2004, 12:40 PM

Form what I gather DVD-Lab allows out of spec items for a reason. FWIW I tried DVDWS 2 and that too allows for Mpeg audio import as well. I think that a huge part of the problem, with *anything*, is that people don't want to conform 100%. That is why I think that now more places should have downloadable specs that break it down - no matter what program you use. Just because a program allows for out of spec settings does not mean the program sucks, I would say the program sucked if it *only* allowed for out of spec settings. Do a search here for vegas and 7.5 ire and see what you get - there has been much disccusion about the "broadcast colors" plug-in not being in spec. Yet people still, time and time again use Vegas to output material for broadcast.

One of the little marketing things that DVD-Lab is using is that it will accept out of spec material. They even have a tutorial on how to take VCD's and put them onto a DVD - clearly out of spec but a fairly brillant idea for those who have newer players that will play VCD's and allow for a DVD menus system on the disk. I doubt any "pros" would use this and send it off for duplication, but certianly anyone who had made VCD's and now wants to add onto them - PEG outlets come to mind as one possible user - this would be nice. I think a better word is 'flexable' when talking about *any* software that allows for many formats.

I would call Adobe products somewhat flexable because of the wide plug-in support. Photoshop accepts almost any type of graphic, After Effects will take any source material and output to film res without any sort of error telling you "Hey this 5 fps avi at 120X120 is going to look like crap at film res" I would call Vegas, Acid and Sound Forge flexable because of the DX plug-in support *and* the ability to accept almost any audio format. Again, no error if you want to import an 8 bit mono file and convert it over to CD quality for burning.

Here is an example of some specs for one replicator - this is for audio - but there is no reason places can't start doing this for DVD as well - they list the basics first in very simple terms: "Your master must be mixed to two tracks, edited, and sequenced. Make sure it sounds exactly like you want it to sound, with all the songs in the correct order and the right amount of spacing between songs." But than they break it down - Maximum running time for Cassette and CD, type of acceptable stock, log sheets. Than they break it down evem more. For example if you submit on DAT:

- Digital Audio Tape: 44.1 kHz or 48 kHz sampling rate
- Pre-roll: 10-15 seconds recorded silence. (Optional) Calibration tone: 1 kHz at -12 dB (never at 0 dB).
- Start Ids: sequentially numbered, placed at the start of each selection, one number per song.
- If you are ordering CDs, a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz is highly recommended. Optional for cassettes.
- Your dB meters should peak at 0, with no over levels, and must average above -15 dB (Red Book minimum standard).
- Be sure your DAT and box are labeled.

They also offer templates for the graphic layout of the sleeves as well. So it doesn't matter what program you are using because you have all the specs right there.

But to be fair - and I say this a lot - people really want/need all of this 'one click' solution software so they can just dump in a file and dump out a complete project. I played with the new Studio 9 package for a bit. Say you want to make a music video - say it is all shot so you are hired to edit. In Studio 9 you would bring in the footage. Just put in your tape and let Studio 9 log it all and break it down. You don't have to do anything. Now next just go the the 'create music video automaticly' section. Drag all of your caputred footage onto the timeline, Doesn't really matter if you have it in order. Now choose the music and drop that on the timeline. Now select the editing style. Now click on make video. Ok - it is all edited. Now to burn to DVD you can create a menu - go ahead, just select one of the templates. Now go to the output options and select DVD. Click and walk away. Come back and you have your music video on a DVD. Is it in 'spec'? I have no idea - but lets say it is. Here you have a process where someone who has no talent or no experiance can offer to edit a music video and author a DVD - and they really don't have to do any brain work.

DVD-Lab really is not that type of program. It will put the pieces together based on what you tell it to do. it won't encode AC3, it won't encode DTS, it won't encode MPG. It won't allow for creation for menus, buttons, frame and so on at the photoshop level. So if you know what the specs are you can edit and mix in a program and encode audio and video to the DVD specs of your duplicator/replicator. Create all your graphics in a graphics program based on set specs. Open DVD-Lab and create...assemble. ..output.

johnmeyer wrote on 2/14/2004, 2:16 PM

VideoCurmudgeon,

I couldn't agree with you more on DVD menus. I can't stand the fancy menus that take forever to navigate.

The only "tweak" I'd make your comment is something that builds on your form/function comment. The menus DO have to provide basic functions of navigation, and if that don't do that, then the product is deficient. This is why the lack of end actions is so key to the future fo this product (obviously Sony will address this in the next release).

Jay Gladwell wrote on 2/14/2004, 4:24 PM

John, we're to "total" agreement!

J--

riredale wrote on 2/15/2004, 5:07 PM

Regarding DVD menus:

What I tried to do in my last project was to build a moving menu that was entertaining to watch and lasted about a minute. After that minute, the DVD would begin playing the movie. Or you could, at any time, just hit the "go" button (the default selected menu item was "Play the movie") and you'd be seeing the movie immediately.

The whole point of any menu is to give some choices at the beginning, right? For example, my menu offered the following choices: (1) Play the movie, (2) Play the movie with Commentary, (3) Go to a Specific Chapter, (4) Go to a Specific Song (it was a video about a choir tour), (5) Bonus features.

The Bonus Features menu had a bunch of other interesting but tangential clips, one of which was kind of like a "blooper" reel. Finally, I put in a couple of hidden menu items ("easter eggs"). One went to a series of screens describing how the DVD was made, and the other went to a couple of pages that let the viewer try to find the "Critter." If you clicked on the correct persons in a group photo over several pages, you'd get a 5-second shot of the Critter. It's hard to describe here, but those who figured it out found it to be pretty cool.