>>>>So, I'm in a quandary... I will always use Vegas, but am kinda embarrassed to admit it - as the 'professional video production community' looks down at it. Gosh... a product so good with professional capabilities, but probably will never attain a place in the upper eschelon of NLEs.<<<<<<

It's they who should be embarassed.

"is VEGAS even marketed at all?"

Madison has bought full page ads in magazines including ads for Vegas. I saw one in Movie Maker magazine.

I'm now gonna support Bob's thinking, but from an unexpected angle . . please bare with me . ..

It is PRECISELY because Vegas can deal with many media inputs quickly I CAN get to my story/narrative/idea/impact very fast. Now THAT is one of the importance aspects for me.

Because it can give me this lickety-split(spit?) performance that I CAN retain/put-down/ ideas and move on - that I ain't still concerning myself about HOW I import a PNG or a WM or so on and so on, that does it for me.

Until ALL media, and I mean ALL media has and agrees with ONE format ( yeah, right!) Vegas will dominate not only my end of the "market" but will eventually be mimicked by "others".

What I now want, and always will desire are Previewing rates - previewing rates which reflect/support my ideas.

Look, I have not come from Bob's background of knowledge and wisdom and experience of having to have a bolted-down industry-standard NLE. I was at one time from the final client-sign-off end - I HAVE been that buyer of analogue 3-D REAL physical art work and for organisations. I didn't really care about HOW the artist got there – if I felt the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, then that was good enough for me.

Now, decades later, as a cameraman and editor, if I can have a platform that assists me to "dig-out" an idea, pursue a thought, work-with an intangible piece of media that is "starting" to reflect just WHAT I want 'cos it has this open door ability to allow me to manipulate the functions and formats 'cos it GETS me to my end result FAST, then that's for me.

And this is PRECISLEY what Vegas does for me. It is Vegas' PRIMARY agnostic approach to media that has, in turn, required/demanded of itself the need to support/deliver multifunctional features across ALL the media formats that again in turn has - for me - this SECONDARY virtue - meaning, me being offered this plethora of functions and options.

So Vegas, for me IS a remarkable suite of software, but maybe for me it is because of its mixed media "reach-needs" that it has come up trumps.

OK, plus the dedicated, small band of programmers that are punting for us makes me wanna keep with this software. Now with Vegas 7, with its snapping colour bars is a pure delight to work with. Yes, old hands might think that this SHOULD have been there some time back - OK, very well, sure! My point is this - IT HAS HAPPENED!!! Somebody had had the idea and the where-with-all to do it. Now THAT must be novel in our game? From where I'm sitting, our team, in Madison, are aware and often responsive to issues we have ( I'll put on me tin helmet and flack jacket here! LOL!! ). Sometimes tt takes time. But when they pull it off? Don't it make you feel good?

So, my own personal 2 precise reasons are:

#1 - Vegas allows me great creative functionality

#2 - We have a team that WANTS us to succeed!

I've yet to find any other business where so much emphasis is placed on what something was done with rather than what was done.

For the record I've never worked in broadcast although I do know several who do / have. I've learned a lot from them, I've bugged them for knowledge relentlessly. I think I understand their world and it's very different to ours. Ultimately it's not about being creative, it's about being productive. They do some things that I've had a lot of trouble getting my head around, like having program start at 10:00:00:00!

Try getting Vegas to do a PTT that meets that requirement!

Bob.

re the need to have "program start at 10:00:00:00".

It isn't that hard unless you are looking for a function named "digital cut"- if you look for that it will be impossible.

For DV: Set DV deck to "Make TC", tc value 10:00:00:00. First frame of incoming video will start at this number (bars/tone and pre-black durations do count). Tools>Print to tape>

For SDI decks (w/ Decklink, Aja): Stripe tape. Assign "10:00:00:00" as the start # in the print wizard. Tools>Print to tape>

XDCAM let's you assign a start value in several ways; see deck menu.

Eh?

"Ultimately it's not about being creative, it's about being productive."

Same thing, ultimately.

nope, not the same thing.

productive = get product out as fast as possible to bring in max amount of $$$.
creative = get the product the best it can possibly be to bring in the max amount of $$$.

can't do both unless you're really really good and/or lucky. Productive editing is what's wanted in my area in video editing business & i hate doing that. Luckly I found a few people who agree & hire me indy. :)

I'm not exactly cycnical but having a great product requires getting your foot in the door first. To borrow a principle from politics (and business), appearances are everything when you're trying to get someone to change.

Sony should develop a Vegas interface, maybe just open the code a bit for others to develop "themes," so that it can be made to look like Avid of the Future. Then, give us a one-click white-balance feature like Avid and some of the consumer NLEs. I'll be responsible for sales. I'll move my office to L.A., etc....
.

I spent fifteen years in small-market television and cable ad production as a videographer, producer, director, editor, production manager and promotion director. I "cut my teeth" in the NLE world on a Media 100. When I left the business a few years ago, I still wanted to do freelance corporate/industrial work on a part-time basis. I settled on Premiere 6, which at the time was a pretty sweet program. But I learned that no software is perfect. It becomes a matter of which bugs and limitations you can live with and can work around.

Like many Vegas users, I was both curious and slightly skeptical when Vegas 6 came along. Could it work for the jobs I was doing at the time? After downloading the trial version and spending some quality time with it, I was extremely impressed.

Now as as freelance videographer, I am always looking for ways to do more work of better quality in less time. Vegas is like a "Swiss-Army Knife" for me.

Another key factor has been the excellent support of Vegas users on this message board. Folks like DSE, Grazie and JohnnyRoy who know this product like the back of their hand. I never saw this in the Premiere forum.

Just my two cents, that's all.

Thanks!
James in Virginia

All good points!

Happy, yeah I realise where you are coming from. My "inverted-view" is that when I'm being productive then my creative thoughts/ideas/juices are speeding along very productively. When I'm doing smash and grab, that's a formulaic version of WHAT I can do quickly. I use Vegas' options for CC in a very seeded up version of usefulness. It's 'cos I can work fast with the Vegas Toolset that I can ALSO come on with creative ideas. That's all. Working Productively IS working Creatively. And the reverse - this is for me. The corollary for the original view is that 'cos I'm working creatively I am NOT being productive. And, if I'm working productively I am NOT being creative? See? No? .. . oh well, I did try . .

vitalforce, why should Sony develop a Vegas interface that "mirrors others?

Maybe yes to open the code a bit for others to develop.

A one-click white-balance feature like Avid I cannot comment on. I do cheat sometimes and get an idea from the AA6C and Auto Levels Plugs. No? Not what you mean?

JARiffe, woah you have a MUCH vaster and deeper understanding of the biz than I do. Any chance of getting together with you? I would like to share and talk-up some ideas? SKYPE is good for me? As you say, "I am always looking for ways to do more work of better quality in less time. Vegas is like a "Swiss-Army Knife" for me. " Oh yes!

I'll take your kind words and show them to my Bank Manager - lol!

This is great! "I never saw this in the Premiere forum."

And thank YOU James! "James in Virginia"

Simple question then.
If it isn't that hard why do we have to do anything to make this happen.

All other apps seem to be able to handle the simple arithemtic of subtracting duration of bars, leade, slate and countdown and they generate slates. Great way to promote your product too, a slate with the Vegas name in it, doesn't seem to be doing Avid any harm.
Sure we CAN do it ourselves but why should we have to.
And while we're on the subject why can't we do insert edits to DV decks recording in DVCAM?
Seems to be no problem with a pretty dumb edit controller.

Bob.

"productive = get product out as fast as possible to bring in max amount of $$$.
creative = get the product the best it can possibly be to bring in the max amount of $$$."

I'd quibble a little here and add "craft" to the mix.

What you want is an NLE that is very productive so that you have more time to apply craft in a creative way. Craft is turning out a solid product, Creativity is doing it in an expressive way that reinforces the "message" beyond simply handing it to the viewer. Craft largelyhelps to keep users from being distracted by warts and blemishes on the project.

I like to compare small scale video production to a small woodshop and to the craft of woodworking. First of all, many people I know have spent more on their small woodshops than most of us will ever spend on Vegas. But in terms of process, a productive woodworker may turn out a set of shelves very quickly, if they are a good craftsperson the shelves will be sturdy and well made, and if they are creative the shelves will have their own unique identity and maybe even a certain beauty. But you don't need all three to make the shelves.

Rob Mack

Hi James,

The shop I work in was all media100 up until early this year when we switched to Axio/Premiere. The owner/editor wanted hardware based systems so of course Vegas was out, but I wish he had tried the software. Hardware acceleration is just too important to be passing up.

Vegas would have fit in very well with where a lot of our bread and butter work has gone over the last ten years but not where his documentary work has gone. I have to say that the Axio/Premiere choice has been very rocky but some of that has been a matter of not "going with the flow", a problem that everyone adopting a new NLE seems to have. Even Vegas.

I'm curous to hear your observations on the transition to Vegas. Did you try to migrate any projects from M100?

Rob Mack

After 3 years of research and shooting and 2 years of editing on Vegas I just finished a doc called WWV - World War Virtual
This project had 1 terabyte of footage off any video format there is out there.
Vegas 6 handled everything smoothly and gave me a good final print of broadcast quality.
Recently HBO saw a DVD screener and they liked the film, but they want to re-edit parts of it before buying it. Don't know yet how this re-editing process will work out but they never bothered to ask me what i edit with or complained about the quality of what they have seen.
My point is that Vegas can be a professional tool no matter what FCP and AVID users might say.
We are a small production company and we work on Vegas (installed on a BOXX machine) and on FCP (on a MAC PRO machine).
We cut all of our news pieces (and we r producing a lot of them for clients in the broadcast community of Europe) with Vegas cause its much faster and meeting deadlines is a priority for that kind of jobs.
At the same time cutting the hour long doc was also done on Vegas due to numerous different formats. So i think Vegas can be both a "productive" and "creative" tool.
Yes, we might have to re-edit with HBO on Avid if they send us to one of their post houses, and it is true that most post houses will work with FCP as well, but at the end of the day Vegas is a proffesional tool if you treat it like one.

If you r interested in the documentary, trailer and more info can be found at
http://wwvdoc.com

Hi, Grazie.......

Thanks for the kind words! :) I looked into Skype and am interested in it, but need to research it a bit more. I'd be happy to correspond further and I don't mind giving you my e-mail address, riffedv-at-suddenlink-dot-net. Drop me a line sometime!

Hi, Rob.......great comments! I hear the Axio system is pretty nice. Having good hardware makes the difference when using Premiere. I did an MDA Camp Video for one of my old stations a few years ago and was amazed with how their Premiere software ran so much better than mine did at home. Of course, they were running it on a Matrox system.

We had the Media 100i on a Mac when I was working for the NBC affiliate in Bristol, Virginia. At the time, we only had two video tracks on the timeline, but it was loaded with BorisFX and Graffiti, so we were able to make some nice layered stuff. But that was in 2002. When I left the station, I didn't save any of my project files (dumb decision, I know). I still have Premere 6 loaded on my system, and still use it on occasion for the Boris Factory transitions and the Pinnacle TitleDeko graphics, but not much else.

The learning curve to Vegas wasn't as steep as I anticipated. Probably my favorite part of Vegas is the Trimmer feature and the ability to double-click on a clip in Explorer and load it directly into the trimmer, rather than to the timeline. This allows for precise in and out points before dropping to the timeline. Learning the Vegas "parent/child" style of compositing took some time as well, but searches done on this forum really helped. Probably the only complaint I have about Vegas, is when I hit the I or O key on the timeline and a region is formed. But that's an easy work-around for me.

Now, when I talk to potential clients, I simply tell them, "I shoot with a Canon and I edit in Vegas!"

James

"Yes, we might have to re-edit with HBO on Avid if they send us to one of their post houses,"

I would be more interested in hearing how you got your screener to HBO, and what it's like working with them as the project proceeds...

Steve M.

"I'm curous to hear your observations on the transition to Vegas. Did you try to migrate any projects from M100? "


We have run Vegas on the same machine with an Media 100 844/x and used the uncompressed QT that it captures. It's amazing how much Vegas can do with this footage in real time using a very fast hard drive array.....

Haven't tried the media 100 Mac footage, but it would probably work also as it's quicktime.

Actually, trimmer comparison between M100 and Vegas is something I'm intersted in. I cut just one thing on m100 before getting swamped with the web side of the company's business, but it seemed like there was a lot more you could do with the trimmer there.

Sony might have done well to buy Media100 for the hardware. Our last gasp with m100 was with their 844x system, which Ballets Russes was partly edited on. It was a seriously kick-ass system which the Axios were meant to replace.

Rob Mack

Can't speak to using the mac - based footage except that I understand it's a proprietary mjpeg codec. What has been more of a problem is moving actual projects over to other systems. Even moving timelines from m100 to 844x was a problem.

There's a lot of high end hardware out there that Vegas should be just fine on. No reason you can't run big arrays on fiberchannel if you want.

The very, very nice thing is that you can put vegas onto a system like an 844x and they'll coexist (although I think you were pretty bold to try it)

Rob Mack

Like I've been saying ever since my Vegas discovery, "It's the best kept secret in video production"!

I've been working on Avid since '99, and last year ('05) the station I work for got an Adrenaline... almost the top of the line of Avids then... shortly before, I got my own Vegas system, and to this day am AMAZED how much easier, more sensible, more intergating, user friendly and way less expensive Vegas is! Plus, you can actually use Vegas on a "normal" computer you can buy at a normal store, not some special box thing (side note: the station bought the Avid from Avid, and paid around $1,500 for each monitor the salesperson there told us you can get the same thing at Best Buy for $250!) Lately, I've been discovering the same thing with Adobe Premiere... things like being able to adjust audio levels and fx while playing the clip which Vegas and Adobe do without a problem, but in Avid, try to adjust any audio, and the thing stops! There are many other examples... and... has anybody tried to back up data from an Avid edit? Very complecated and after a long time of trying, never got it to work right. In my experience, Avid is an overpriced over hyped NLE that Vegas and Adobe can basically edit circles around.... like someone said here, it's all in the marketing.

That's why it's really best for editors to do their own "test driving" when deciding on their NLE.

(all my humble opinion!)

I really DO like Vegas. It is powerful, and so user freindly. I come from years of DAW and midi music production, then stumbled on loop based Acid products which are great. Having learned that, I found using Vegas so similar it was a breeze to learn more complicated features of video editing. I still have a long way to go 9yet I'm accomlished the basics needed to produce), but this will keep me challenged and entertained for some time as I get even more familiar with the necessary body of knowledge. It is a learning of love, however, rather than tedium and frustration, thankfully, largely because this is such a user freindly interface.

I have been following these discussions for quite sometime now and sometime back even asked some questions. All very interesting and understandable. I primarily do training and scripted type projects. That is mostly cut and paste type editing or linear type editing. I started using VV back at VV2.0 and have kept it updated every since. I have done projects on it and it works fine. Other comments here though still bother me for what I miss or "THINK" I still need is linear insert editing capabilties. I have used a full FAST Video Machine DPR plus system for years and I am putting it back into service again. I do mastering to both BetacamSP and DVCPro. I use all formats into the VM DPR at 3:1 compression YUV and it is an MJPEG codec. But limited 2 video tracks and 8 audio work as Vegas can do more. But I can make a change to either the NLE file or tape master file frame accurate in only a couple of minutes when the client wants to change a graphic or insert an audio etc. I mix them on the fly back and forth as needed. That is useful.

So I have been watching all the talk on Decklink and wish I could do the same tape in and out functions I do on VM. Right now I port between the two as needed for the best of each worlds. I'd like them to be married or at least live together. As mentioned else where, two camps of editing. I appreciate Vegas for all it does and l like it. But I hope some version finally can do this. As for Bob's question, you can insert on DV it is just not listed as possible in the the spec but I do it all the time on the Panasonic AJD650 on DVCPro with the VM system.

Anyway, if anyone does figure out how to do these things, it would be my greatest wish answered.

Gary