I think some Final Cut Pro UI compatibilty and FCP Import/Export would make Vegas an easy alternative for current FCP and Avid users

JoeSh wrote on 4/17/2004, 1:18 PM
Hi Folks
This snippet got buried in another thread but I think it's worth elevating to its own discussion, especially since V5 is about to come out (and 5.0b will probably be not too far off...)

PLEASE, this is not intended as flame bait. I hope we can chat about the good points of both the Vegas and FCP UIs and how one MIGHT enhance the Vegas UI to make FCP/Avid/Premiere etc. users more comfortable and productive in the Vegas environment.

Let's just assume FOR THIS THREAD that "learn the Vegas paradigm" is off the table and see what folks come up with. Anyway... here's what was buried in two earlier threads:


Joe writes:
So I imported a cut of a short I edited on Final Cut. I want to finish it using Vegas' wonderful real-time tools but I still "can't live without" Final Cut's wonderful cuts-only editing workflow.

The two biggest "features" I wish for in Vegas are:
- Robust Import/Export to FCP - either by EDL or maybe by reverse-engineering the FCP3 and FCP4 project file format. This would essentially buy you all of FCP's EDL and OMF capabilities, as well as allowing an easy migration path from FCP to Vegas.

- UI compatibility "mode" for FCP users. FCP got the market from Avid by essentially copying Avid's UI and then making improvements to it. But mostly FCP is a simplified Avid running on a Mac. If FCP users could run Vegas without having to learn a new paradigm you'd have people flocking from FCP to Vegas just like you did from Avid to FCP.

I'm fairly convinced that you could do the latter without breaking Vegas' current UI. In fact I'd love to consult on such a project. As it stands I'm pretty close to having to upgrade my Mac so I can go to FCP4. Wish I didn't have to do that.


jetdv writes:
Explain the "wonderful cuts-only editing workflow"


Nat writes:
Once you learn the ui of vegas it is sucha pain to work with anything different. The power of Vegas is it's UI.


Joe writes:
Nat - I don't want to turn this into a Vegas vs FCP thread. They both have their strengths and weaknesses. But I've heard quite a few people who are dyed-in-the-wool Vegas users mention that, when they tried FCP, they really liked its cutting interface.

That plus the fact that if you're going to change something you'd better make it a LOT better to justfiy the change makes me believe that Vegas would be much better off if one COULD cut on it in the customary manner.

Do you really believe that Vegas' CUTTING UI is its strength? If so, would you elaborate? What's your workflow and how does it compare with what I detailed earlier?

jetdv - I don't have time right now to do your question justice (I have an audition soon!) but I'll give it a quick swag.

Frame-accurate timecode-based keyboard commands: If I want to roll an edit back or forward, say, 1 second, I can type:
"R-1.<Enter>" Go into Roll mode, then move the edit -1:00 frames.
To ripple an edit I might type
"RR15<Enter>" Go into Ripple mode and move the edit forward 15 frames.

I don't have to zoom in, use a numeric keypad (which I don't have on my laptop) or touch the mouse. I don't have to worry about being halfway between frames and getting unintended fades or "holes." I know about "Quantize to Frames" but this feature is implemented at too high a level. Many operations can still leave the timeline with events that end in the middle of a frame.

I can open an "event" in the "trimmer" and tweak its in and out points, split the edit, or do a number of other things without worrying about losing my in and out points by simply clicking the mouse, hitting an arrow key, etc. Tying the selection and the in and out points together in the UI is a real issue for me.

Media Mgt: In FCP I can "log" my clips by annotating them with markers (which function as both Vegas markers and regions). These markers persist and are visible IN THE MEDIA POOL hierarchically under the clip. It's as if the clip were a bin. I can drop these markers in the timeline and they become "events" named after the marker. I can also "tear off" these markers to make subclips that live in the media pool but are no longer children of the original clip. However, it's always easy to:
1. trace back from a subclip to region in the original clip from where it came
2. look at the original clip and see what regions are marked

There's lots more and I'm sure it can be stated more eloquently but there it is for now...

Comments

roger_74 wrote on 4/17/2004, 1:25 PM
You have some valid points, but UI compatibilty sort of defeats the purpose doesn't it? In my mind the awesome power of Vegas comes from it's UI.

Edit: oops, broke your rule about not mentioning "learn the Vegas paradigm"... :-)
Nat wrote on 4/17/2004, 1:29 PM
Ok I think I don't really get the cutting UI thing.

Cutting/trimming is the thing I find the most efficient in Vegas, There is one tool that I can modify using ctrl, alt or both. This allows me to trim media very quickly : spip trim, roll trim, trim beggining of clip without changing position etc.

Now about splitting. I worked with Finalcut pro and splitting is done with the razor blade tool. That's fine works well. However, it's as easy in Vegas. Position the cursor at the slit position and hit S. Another fun feature select a zone and hit ctrl t...

I think FCP is fine but I don't see why Vegas UI would require any changes, I'd be glad to hear some reasons why.
JoeSh wrote on 4/17/2004, 1:48 PM
There are two aspects to this thread:
1. How can we make Vegas migration easier for users of "the big two" editing platforms: FCP and Avid.
2. Can Vegas' UI learn anything from the FCP/Avid UI?

Nat - I find that I have to zoom in and out a lot in Vegas to get my cuts where I want them. I also have to use the mouse a lot. I find that FCP lets me do frame-accurate editing with quick keyboard shortcuts. Being able to type timecode has a lot to do with this.

I use a laptop and thus don't have a numeric keypad so I don't have experience with the keypad shortcuts that Vegas does provide. Presumably V5 will let me try these since it's got a remapable keyboard.

Oh, and another way to cut in FCP is by typing Ctrl+V. Same thing as S in Vegas.
Maybe V5 will include a remap preset that closely approximates FCP's commands...
Nat wrote on 4/17/2004, 1:57 PM
"Being able to type timecode has a lot to do with this."

Hit Ctrl-g

It is true I zoom a lot, but with the mouse wheel it is so easy. Especially and you remove the dents from your wheel mouse.
JoeSh wrote on 4/17/2004, 2:01 PM
Ctrl+G allows one to type timecode, but only to move the cursor to a new location. In FCP one can have an edit selected and type, say, +5 to move the edit 5 frames forward. Or RR+5 to ripple the edit 5 frames forward. So one can type timecode to do many things rather than just to go to a point in the timeline.
Nat wrote on 4/17/2004, 2:04 PM
True, that's a nice feature, it could be implemented without disturbing the current ui
Nat wrote on 4/17/2004, 2:06 PM
I,m not sure but I think such a feature could be scriptable
JoeSh wrote on 4/17/2004, 2:10 PM
That's exactly what I'm looking for. Nice features in FCP that users will miss and that can be implemented without hurting the Vegas UI.

PLUS a command mapping (aka UI mode) that'll make FCP users able to run Vegas without a steep learning curve.

Imagine if a car maker decided to sell cars with the steering wheel on the other side of the car? They wouldn't sell well, be it in England or the USA. It's not that one side is better than the other - just that once people learn one way it's a tough sell to get them to switch. So why insist on this hurdle? The look-and-feel lawsuits long ago decided that it's OK to provide compatibility with someone else's UI.
roger_74 wrote on 4/17/2004, 2:11 PM
Scriptable yes, but it would add another keystroke/mouseclick to run the script.

If there's a need for it I'll throw something together.
roger_74 wrote on 4/17/2004, 2:17 PM
Maybe the Edit Details window would be a good starting point for the functionality you're after. Hit the product suggestion page!
Nat wrote on 4/17/2004, 2:23 PM
roger : would that be possible ?

I select an event. I hit the shortcut key for a script, a window pops up with a simple feild and an ok button. I can then enter different commands in that field that will affect the media :

+1 would move tge event 1 frame
+R1 would roll the event 1 frame.
Nat wrote on 4/17/2004, 2:25 PM
Just tried the edit window, under events, very useful !!
JoeSh wrote on 4/17/2004, 2:32 PM
Roger, Nat - The pop-up window script idea is an interesting near-term solution. It sounds like it would provide much of the functionality I'm looking for. I look forward to the remapable keyboard in V5 to see how much farther things may be pushed - maybe + and - keys mapped to the macro for instance?

Oh - as far as the Edit Details view - can you elaborate? Roger, what did you have in mind? Nat, what did you find so compelling?
roger_74 wrote on 4/17/2004, 2:33 PM
Yes, that would be "easy".

Edit Details does it to a degree already, but +10 or -10 and so on would be useful nonetheless.
Nat wrote on 4/17/2004, 2:35 PM
Well, you can precisely change the position and lenght of an event in the edit details window. I docked mine at the bottom of the screen so if I need to move an event exactely 2 frames I can change the timecode there...

makes sense ?
JoeSh wrote on 4/17/2004, 3:20 PM
Yup. I see what you mean about the Edit Details being able to tweak event timecode. But it'd be cumbersome to use it to roll or ripple an edit. Actually, I think it'd be pretty impossible to ripple - you'd have to tweak every event downstream on the timeline. But I know you weren't suggesting that.

I still like the pop-up box idea though. I assume it'd work on the edit point closest to the "cursor" on the selected track. Not sure what edge cases might need to be handled. Seems like similar issues to the Vegas ripple model - which is a good deal more complex than FCP's - for reasons that I'm not totally aware of.
roger_74 wrote on 4/17/2004, 3:36 PM
Thought about it some more. The scripting approach while feasible, would be a bit limited, since you can't ripple edits from a script. Maybe we can lobby for some improvements in that regard.

If I need to move an event in a controlled way I rarely need to move it more than a couple of frames, so numpad 1 and 3 works good without having to zoom in. But people have laptops too, like you said...

Sometimes I just move the cursor with Alt+Arrow and then use the mouse to move the event to the new cursor position.
Cheesehole wrote on 4/17/2004, 6:40 PM
> you can't ripple edits from a script

Why not? I've written specialized ripple functions into scripts. But I guess it wouldn't pay attention to the real ripple edit setting...
jetdv wrote on 4/17/2004, 6:53 PM
How about this: You can't EASILY ripple with scripts and you can't access the "auto ripple" functionality.

Yes, you CAN ripple via a script but you have to be careful to move only the proper events on ALL tracks. It's enough work to do right that it's not necessarily practical to do.
roger_74 wrote on 4/18/2004, 9:04 AM
roger_74: you can't ripple edits from a script

cheesehole: Why not? I've written specialized ripple functions into scripts. But I guess it wouldn't pay attention to the real ripple edit setting...

Sure you can do it yourself, but we're talking about this in the context of well designed software (right JoeSh?). Duplicating something that is already there, and not caring about what ripple setting Vegas is currently using is not a solution.

Also, to my knowledge there is no way to tell if an event belongs to a group via scripting, so you can never really duplicate the behaviour of the internal ripple.