is anyone burning BluRay discs?

john-beale wrote on 1/27/2008, 12:32 AM
I've been shooting HD (Sony FX1) and delivering SD on DVD-R for the past several years. The customers have been fine with this, but when I look at my final output it is depressing to see the loss in image quality vs. the original HDV source. And in fact when I show the customers (non-video-techies) the HDV played on my HDTV they usually comment right away on how clear the image is, without me saying anything. So, I would like to be able to make a high-def version- IF the hardware is ready, and the workflow is reasonable.

To be specific, I'm thinking about the LG GGW-H20L Blu-Ray burner, which claims to burn BD-R at 6x (but only 4x on media actually available now). Here's a review: http://www.cdrlabs.com/reviews/index.php?reviewid=309

Is anyone really making blu-ray discs these days, with the LG burner or anything else? Are you using MPEG2 or VC-1 or H.264 or...? How is it working for you? Are the discs generally compatible with players (as the early DVD-R media was quite often not?) I've read the Blu-ray format is much more sensitive to fine dust, fingerprints, dirt etc. than DVD, which is logical given the higher bit density.

Comments

DJPadre wrote on 1/27/2008, 12:58 AM
Im about to buy a sony unit here.. i believe its one of the few that support 50gb

One thing though, with the ridiculously limited support albeit through Vegas and through the non existance of BD in DVDA, Ive just invested a wad of cash in upgrading my Adobe produciton bundle to the complete CS3 suite.

Encore has in essence, what ive been aking of from Sony now for about 6 or so months.. prolly longer if my memory serves me..

You can import your files, and output to BD, DVD and Flash... all the while retaning your menu and project settings, Audio settings based on output requirments and theres virtually no thinking involved.
The only changes are the conversion elements for each respective format.

At the moment, im using WMV/VC1 and AVCHD
I DO use M2t as well, but i prefer to use the not so "common" or "editable" file formats as it dissuades missuse.

In addition, WMV allows for DRM or license tagging, in essence, the file can be copied, but it will not play back unless its off the original disc.
Im still working the kinks of that out, but i will more than likely end up using it for the majority of my HD work, as ive just watched Terminator 2 on WMVHD format and it is absolutly incredible.
And this is at a lowly bitrate of constant 8mbps with WMV 5.1 surround audio at 384.

In regard to players, i wouldnt burn anythign faster than I have to. Ive a burner lets me burn at 2x i use that. Most of the time i burn at 4x and ive never had an issue




alk3997 wrote on 1/27/2008, 3:44 PM
Given how fast everyone on this forum responds to my questions, I figured I return the favor(s)...

My wife surprised me with a Blu-Ray burner for Christmas. So far, I'm very happy. It is the Sony BWU-200. It writes up to 4x and I just started finding Panasonic 4x media at the local Fry's.

I think someone on this forum made the observation that you should get a Blu Ray RE (write erasable) disc with you first batch of blanks. Then always burn the image to the RE first and only if it passes, burn to an R. Always using the RE first, I've yet to make a coaster.

In terms of Sony Vegas, the creation of the disc (I'm still using mostly MPEG2 25mbps) is easy but was eating 100% dual CPU (I've upgraded CPU/MB/memory over the last two days so we'll see how much that helps). The burn is straight-forward. The only real big negative for Vegas is the lack of menus. At least chapter marks are available. Also LPCM audio is now available for Blu-Ray burning.

One more thing - I waited for a while on the LG burner because of the 6x. It was supposed to come out in the US in December. After seeing no sign of anything I hinted that the Sony would be fine since the LG seemed to be vaporware.

Andy
blink3times wrote on 1/27/2008, 3:52 PM
"One thing though, with the ridiculously limited support albeit through Vegas and through the non existance of BD in DVDA, Ive just invested a wad of cash in upgrading my Adobe produciton bundle to the complete CS3 suite."
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DVDitPro has full blu ray burning abilities. I played around with it a while back and made a lot of very expensive coasters. But this was a while ago and from what I understand the process works much better now. It's cheaper than the CS3 bundle.
Spot|DSE wrote on 1/27/2008, 4:55 PM
Regularly. Tradeshow booths love em.'
Haven't used the LG, but have heard good things abou them.
If you don't need menus, just use the Burn Disc tool and burn to DVD5 (length dependent)
If you need menus, there are several options outside of the Sony toolset. Hopefully we'll soon see DVD Architect and BD in bed together.
bsuratt wrote on 1/27/2008, 8:32 PM
<<my final output it is depressing to see the loss in image quality vs. the original HDV source>>

jbeale:

Are you using SmartRender? There is little or no loss with SmartRender. I write HDV to DVD-R regularly and when compared to the original tape they look identical.

Put the captured M2t files directly on the timeline, edit, then render using the same parameters as the original source files. If SmartRender is checked your output quality will be the same as the source. (Assuming you are not applying fx or other changes to the whole clips which would require rerendering.)

john-beale wrote on 1/27/2008, 10:01 PM
Thanks for the smartrender tip. By DVD, I meant my old-fashioned, standard-def 720x480 DVDs that I make for the customers, as compared with the 1440x1080 HDV original. You'd expect that to look different on a big screen, and of course it does.

I guess I also need to learn about how the available high-def players work. Do all or most standalone players play back HDV files on regular 4.7GB DVD-R (that is 25 Mbps 1440x1080i MPEG2, UDF filesystem) ? Or is everyone using a Playstation 3 for blu-ray playback?

When I find online forums where people speak of burning a blu-ray disc, it's not clear sometimes if they mean actual blu-ray media (BD-R or BD-RE, from $10 to $60 each!) or if they are making some kind of blu-ray compatible filesystem on a DVD-R. The same way I used to make DVD compatible filesystems on a CD-R (so-called "mini-DVD" back in the day).
DJPadre wrote on 1/27/2008, 10:04 PM
"DVDitPro has full blu ray burning abilities. I played around with it a while back and made a lot of very expensive coasters. But this was a while ago and from what I understand the process works much better now. It's cheaper than the CS3 bundle."

Well i paid somethign liek 600bux for DVDitProHD and installed it on this system (which was single core SP1 at the time) and i couldnt get past th rego screen... in fact it didnt ven let me put in my registration.

I then tried installing it on the laptop which is a core2 dup SP2, that too came up with the same flaky rego screen.
I Believe it was some sort of Java issue..

I then tried AGAIN on this machine after the upgrade to a quad core and SP2.
No Dice...

Needless to say, i contacted Sonic and pretty much told them what they could do with their installer...

In any case, i wanted to use DVDitProHD for DTS and
uncompressed WAV 5.1 input.

sadly im now stuck with a stupid relearning curve of Encore. It is NOT an intuitive program.. never has been..
Another reason i got CS3 is because PremCS3 has native support for Panasonic MFX from HVX/SPX.
I use this to import HVX clips and render out to cineform 422 for edits in vegas.
It also has a new pipeline into AE filters, so any filter that works in AE, will also work in PremCS3. couldnt do this before now, but there are some prtty incredible 3rd party filters and additions options out there which Vegas users ar sorely missing out on

The possibilities with CS3 are pretty intense...
Shoot a corp job using On Location HDV.
Run the edit through PremCS3 on a laptop with an Nvidia card
You get realtime output, as youwouldnt need to correct as youve done the correction in cam with onlocation...
Output your files...
Create the DVD of a corporate presentation
Then providing that SAME DVD structure (with menus and all) as a flash file to be uploaded to the clients intranet, on the same day that the job was filmed...
Now you can do this with Vegas, but not as an integrated part of teh workflow.
Now theres no way in hell I'd give up Vegas.. not yet.. i'll wait till V9 comes out before i decide which way im going and if the issues we face now are rectified. Vegas is a solid application, but alot needs to be done with it if they want it to compete in this day and age.

Predominately Progressive scan management (ie NOT process Progressive footage as interlaced for certain tasks), Interpolation for slowmotion needs a new build, scaling (up and down), Colour management (such as WB filters) High Definition delivery options NOT associated with anything Sony (ie VC1 encoder as opposed to hybrid WMV9 encoder using VC1 protocols... i want a VC1 extension...) DVDA BADLY needs to support HD.. NOW.. not tomorrow, not next week not next year... NOW...
DVDA needs to support MPG2 audio. And i dont mena M2t embeeded audio, i mean authoring a disc with MPG2 audio stream as opposed to AC3.
Despite the fact that Sony have kept DVDA as one of the only DVD authoring tools to strictly comply with the DVDForum's "manadatory" formats, the optional formats of MPG2 and DTS are not supported.. With these limitations, DVDA will ALWAYS remain a consumer authoring tool.
Also, DVDA needs to be able to manage a variety of AC3 streams. If i want Dolby 1.0 at 92khz to be used as a commentary track, i shouldnt have to render it out as 5.1 to insert into a DVDA 5.1 project. The audio stream should not affect how the video and audio are muxed or managed considering im nto rendering anythign within architext, save fo teh menu itself.
In any case, the list of limitations are incredible and with the needs of the clients evolving, i need to evolve with my clients. Sadly my tools of choice arent evolving with me...

For some types of work, CS3 is simply superior in workflow and delivery options.

waratahbay wrote on 1/27/2008, 10:37 PM
Yes. I'm importing 1920x1080i from the Canon HV20. I then save the edited file as mt2 onto my computer in 1920x1080 max bitrate. I then write it with menus to a BD-RE disk using Ulead Movie Factory Plus (nice menus, easy setup) to see that it plays ok in my Blu-ray players; I have two, a Sony S300 and a Pioneer LX70A and both play the disks/files OK. Only then do I burn to BD-R. I am using a Philips BD drive in a Dell desktop and use Sony and Panasonic media. Have not had a coaster yet. And you're right, genuine HD BD played on a HD panel looks spectacular. Peter/Melbourne, Australia.
4eyes wrote on 1/28/2008, 3:25 PM
Or is everyone using a Playstation 3 for blu-ray playback? Going by the latest consumer report "Everyone" in Canada has a PS3, everyone..............
Laurence wrote on 1/28/2008, 4:29 PM
Not to keep bringing up the same thing in so many threads, but you can write an AVCHD disc (blu-ray compatible) using a regular DVD+-R and get about an hour of playback time on a dual layer. Quality is 15mbps AVCHD encoding at 1440x1080 and looks really close to the source HDV footage. These discs can have regular DVD style menus (not the ultra-cool pop-up style Blu-ray menus unfortunately). Authoring can be done from Ulead Movie Factory 6 Plus with the extra HD plugin.

Discs done this way definately have that "wow" factor, and to my eyes at least look very close to the quality of the source footage. They play back fine in all the Sony Blu-ray players. For me at least, this is a whole lot better option than real BD-R discs for now. After all, BD-Rs are still close to $20 each for blanks vs less than $3 each for Ty Yuden dual layers.

Pop an AVCHD disc into a PS3 or any other Sony Blu-ray player and you'll immediately see the menu. Select your option and hit play and you're immediately watching HDV quality video.

Do I see a use for real BD-Rs? Sure, if you are shooting with an EX-1 and want to preserve the 1920x1080 image, or if you need more than an hour of playback time, but aside from that, why not save your money and get 90% of the way there for 15% of the cost. That's if you need between a half hour to a full hour of record time. If your project is less than half an hour, 30 cents a disc is only 1.5% the price of a $20 BD-R disc.

I know that for some people this reasoning doesn't make much sense. If you are billing a wealthy client, you can probably tell him that he needs the best quality available and that this will cost him $20 a disc in raw materials plus that much again so that you can make a profit. I don't have wealthy clients so this isn't even an option, but even if it was, I doubt that any of them would notice that subtle difference in quality anyway.

My stuff is all non-profit or human interest stuff. Neither I nor the people I do work for can afford BD-Rs. To be honest, if you compare one of my AVCHD discs to a proper BD-R disc in true Blu-ray format, there is so little difference that no-one with an untrained eye is going to notice the difference. I have no doubt that in the future, as BD-R prices fall, this will be less of an issue. For now though, doing AVCHD discs on DVD+-R instead of Blu-ray format on BD-R is a no-brainer.
blink3times wrote on 1/28/2008, 4:40 PM
Going by the latest consumer report "Everyone" in Canada has a PS3, everyone..............
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Now this surprises me. What are we supposed to do with a PS3. You know we don't have electricity in Canada yet. I will admit though, they do make good boat anchors. :)
4eyes wrote on 1/28/2008, 5:56 PM
Blink3times,
Didn't think you could pass that up, humor is good.
So I laughed.......until I opened my electric bill, which came today :(
rs170a wrote on 1/28/2008, 6:43 PM
Going by the latest consumer report "Everyone" in Canada has a PS3, everyone..............

They forgot to ask me because all I have is a lowly Wii.

You know we don't have electricity in Canada yet.

You may not have it in Manitoba but we in Windsor, Ontario have had it for awhile.
We just run a line under the river to Detroit, Michigan :-)

Mike
blink3times wrote on 1/28/2008, 6:58 PM
"We just run a line under the river to Detroit, Michigan :-)"
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Well, we WERE thinking about an extension cord to Minnesota, but it's such a long ride though. The dam horse would require at least 2 complete shoe changes.
john-beale wrote on 1/28/2008, 11:37 PM
> AVCHD disc (blu-ray compatible) using a regular DVD+-R... Authoring can be done from Ulead Movie Factory 6 Plus

Thanks very much Laurence for letting me know! This is very helpful, and the Movie Factory 6+ software isn't too expensive. Though I do wish I could do that type of authoring from Vegas+DVDA also. I can't understand why everyone doing HD encoding isn't using the AVC codec instead of MPEG2. Being able to use half the bitrate, so you get double the playing time for any given size disc as compared with MPEG2, is a real advantage for me.
blink3times wrote on 1/29/2008, 3:10 AM
"I can't understand why everyone doing HD encoding isn't using the AVC codec instead of MPEG2. "
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First there is the incredibly long render times, but more to the point.... quality loss. I have the HC3, HC7 and the HV20...... ALL mpeg based cameras. I can "smartrender" mpeg for a shorter render time and almost zero quality loss.

AVCHD can not be "smartrendered". Even if you have a AVCHD cam, you still end up with complete recompresses.

Soooo....
mpeg...... better quality
AVCHD..... longer running time
Pick your "lesser evil"
apit34356 wrote on 1/29/2008, 3:30 AM
"You know we don't have electricity in Canada yet." Ahhhh, that's why you like the hand crank on the Toshiba A2. ;-)


"AVCHD can not be "smartrendered". Even if you have a AVCHD cam, you still end up with complete recompresses." Well, that makes more sense, a lot of the cranking and pedaling those generators......... power management! :-) Tho, I think we all will be reviewing our power usage with the never ending increases of the energy bills. The cell processes AVCHD without difficulty, wish we vegas users could access it.
farss wrote on 1/29/2008, 4:01 AM
Ironic though that it's Toshiba who now control production of the Cell processor.
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/34436/118/

Bob.
blink3times wrote on 1/29/2008, 4:54 AM
Geez Bob,

Don't open that can of worms.... the PS3 spin is already far worse than anything found in my 3 year olds' story books... I can't even begin to imagine how this is going to get twisted!
apit34356 wrote on 1/29/2008, 6:54 AM
FArss, I have posted a number of times about that deal, cost Toshiba mega$$$ dollars to buy 51% of Sony ic plants, plus they had to legally commit to volume and profits to Sony. But that aside, IBM produces all the 65 nm Cells for the PS3 the last 6 months. Currently, nobody trusts Toshiba in any design or manufacturing alliance because the issues of Intel and MS deal. Which is why, Toshiba is buying with "hard" cash into deals. Toshiba really should be re-reimbursed for doing Intel and MS dirty work, I don't think Toshiba thought the complex web of future products would be damaged. This war over media control and Dl's will be interesting. Intel and MS, regardless of want they plan, they need media, Most of the players are not known for giving away control of $$$, ----------------------- so, if Google get the airways and continues buying dark lines, Google maybe the next media distr king, without Intel, MS ,Apple, Amazon......
craftech wrote on 1/29/2008, 7:59 AM
FArss, I have posted a number of times about that deal, cost Toshiba mega$$$ dollars to buy 51% of Sony ic plants, plus they had to legally commit to volume and profits to Sony. ....Currently, nobody trusts Toshiba in any design or manufacturing alliance because the issues of Intel and MS deal. Which is why, Toshiba is buying with "hard" cash into deals.
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I looked for articles to support that Apit and only found articles like this one that had explanations like the following one:

"It was somewhat difficult to determine which company will actually benefit most from the plans or whether it will affect PlayStation 3 pricing and sales, NPD gaming analyst David Riley said.

When you say "nobody trusts Toshiba in any design or manufacturing alliance", I hope you realize that just like the other companies, Toshiba doesn't just make DVD players.

John

apit34356 wrote on 1/29/2008, 9:56 AM
Craftech, look a little deeper in the professional IC engineering & manufacturing news if you have access.

I've aware of Toshiba many divisions.

Again, people seem to forgot that Sony is a major manufacturer of CCDs and CMOS sensors for just about all the camera OEMs out there( this market is always changing). Sony sometimes stamps another manufacturer's name for a few $ more on the IC, making it the OEM brand IC.

A small point, Toshiba approached Sony about buying ic plants for future product needs--- smarter TVs, more powerful imaging devices...... Sony was not interested until the hard $$$ and long term commitments were in play. Toshiba has manufacturing ic plants of its own, but most are geared for flash and d.memories and simply consumer electronic controllers, no state of art CMOS plants with complex high density production experience.

The big deal today is 35nm IC manufacturing. IBM was formed an alliance to develop a cost efficient process using some of the new gates and vertical gate concepts( tested but not in mass production) . This alliance is viewed as the only cost efficient approach for 35nm for most IC manufacturers VS Intel in a given time frame.
John_Cline wrote on 1/29/2008, 2:28 PM
In answer to the original question: Yes, I am burning Blu-Ray discs. I bought a Panasonic 5582 burner months ago (it's the same drive as the Sony 100 and the Plextor 900.) The new Sony 200 burner is a Panasonic 5583 drive which is SATA and burns at 4x.

I use Encore CS3 to author my discs. I've done about twenty projects with it and all discs have played on all Blu-Ray burners that I have tried. On HDV projects, I use Vegas to edit and smart-rendered the project. I render the audio separately as a 24-bit linear PCM file or an .AC3 file if it's 5.1 surround. Then I use VideoReDo to de-multiplex the HDV .M2t file into separate audio and video streams. The demuxed video stream and the audio I rendered out of Vegas import directly into Encore and get authored into a Blu-Ray disc without further encoding. The discs look as good as the original HDV footage.

Blank Verbatim 25GB BD-R discs are currently $10.69 at www.tapeandmedia.com.

John
apit34356 wrote on 1/29/2008, 3:43 PM
John Cline, thanks for posting your experience with Encore CS3, I need to actually use it for something. John, do you have complex menus and sub-menus and do you have interactive controls during "play" with your projects?