>>...You can edit an image in PShop from Vegas, been able to do that for 2 versions now...

How is this accomplished?

I know I can edit an image in Photoshop and see the results in Vegas as soon as I save the file.

As far as invoking Photoshop from Vegas, I am not clear on this.

How?

Thanks.

I think the issue is that inovation stoped when Vegas was bought by Sony. I mean as far as i'm concerned V7 is almost identical to V4 I'm oversimplying for the sake of argument but the truth is that the software is stagnating.

That's a pretty hard to swallow statement, just off the top of my head:

Support for XDCAM.
Support for BWF.
Support for HDV, SD SDI and HD SDI, HDCAM.
3D compositing.
And still the best NLE for progressive video.

I guess none of that lights a fire under the Youtube mob but at the pointy end of the business they count for a lot.

Bob.

>>...You can edit an image in PShop from Vegas, been able to do that for 2 versions now...

How is this accomplished?

not sure if this is what is meant, but how i do it
is
vegas - copy to clipboard, ps edit,paste

My apologies, I was thinking of DVDA, ability to set a preferred graphics editor.

Great points... (and agree re the acronyms... sorry that's my defense industry background talking, we always had "tla"s (three letter acronyms)..

agree winrock re they'd buy it then kill it, like ultra/cooledit etc

and right patryk re V4 to V7, as I'd posted (probably too much) about in the past, re there's not that much different from V4 to V7.. a few minor teensy improvements here and there ... the big improvement came with multi-cam editing thanks to vasst.com's ultimate S, and the other plugins from newblue and excalibur etc..

The titling is the same lame from V4 to now, right? zero upgrades in 3 years for titling support in vegas and no I don't want to go have to use boris or other program for what should be a feature set in the nle.... sony can you at least license/buyout bluff or boris and integrate it into the NLE for us? I don't want to composite titles in one app, then copy an avi to vegas... that's PP's/CS3's strength, is the seamless workflow integration.. to save us all a lot of time)

But there's a silver lining - it looks like adobe scared sony sh|tless enough that sony even copy catted their name with the "creative" tag, so at least it's getting the marketing dept's attention at sony, which is the first step..

And right since sony vegas/software is such a small part of total profit for sony enterprises, they're mainly a hardware/media (not software/sideline) company.. they likely won't do a lot with vegas. It's not a strategic part of their business, like PP would be, for adobe.

But at least it looks like adobe scared sony enough to inspire sony to copy their name, the 'creative' tag, so maybe it'll scare sony enough to finally put some real resources into vegas and make it a bigger, better product.

I'm still a fan of vegas, and as others have mentioned, it'll always be useful as one of our many tools... and trying out PP2 I still like vegas better... so we'll see.

Sometimes, competition is a good thing. Gets us all working harder. But Sony's more concerned with hardware than software, and that's ok. I like my sony tvs and cameras... vegas is still great, but it's in danger of quickly becoming an also-ran obsoleted hobbyist-niche vs mainstream video editor's choice.

So all of this can be summed up as one of you said, re "Vegas 8 better be something terrific, or else" as far as vegas' future is concerned. I remain totally unimpressed with the lack of progress from V4 to V7. Yeah now media snaps, wow that must've taken years to code, ah or not. The HD support was a must-have, not an option, so no gold stars there.

Come on Sony - let's see some strategic breakthrough killer feature improvements in V8, ok?

Remember that last thread I started about "what features would you like in V7?" and everyone came up with dozens of great ones --- I'm sure the software engineers at Adobe cleverly, smartly listened to all that feedback and most of the features we asked for, will be in the new version of Premiere Pro .. now let's see if Sony will pay attention (finally, now that it's all on the line) and do a lot for V8.

ken

p.s. hey the copywriter in me can't resist this tagline: Sony should make Vegas 8 *so terrific* and so much of a huge breakthrough that anyone who gets PP/CS3 should, after seeing all that Vegas 8 will do, hit themselves on the forehead and say "Woops I could've had a V8!" .. lol.

(*not*, damn I'm stuck with this old v8 when I could've had PP...)

I really wonder how many here actually realise how much Vegas has grown since V4?

When I signed up for V4 it was almost unheard of outside the audio community.

Today we have at least one post house in this city running several Vegas suites and a signifcant number of TVCs going to air that are cut and composited in Vegas. This year in my own straw poll of people in the game I haven't had one person say "Vegas, never heard of it".

And here's an interesting thing, I asked one editor how he did the text and graphics. Guess what, he doesn't, the agency supplies all text and graphics from their own graphics people.

Bob.

Ken,

First of all, Adobe didn't "kill" Ultra nor CoolEdit. The apps simply got a new name.

Secondly, if Vegas isn't doing it for you (which it obviously isn't), you are free to purchase Premiere Pro, Edius, Avid Xpress or any number of other NLE applications.

You are making a whole bunch of unsubstantiated assumptions about what makes Sony tick. Although you make these absolute statements, you have no proof that Sony is more interested in hardware than software and you have no inside information on why they decided to change the name from Sony Media Software" to "Sony Creative Software."

Personally, I think the folks in Madison are doing a fine job. Vegas may not have all the bells and whistles, but it is a solid application that never crashes and I continue to make a very good living by using it. I used to have a flashy Jaguar E-Type, but it was an unreliable piece of crap. It looked really good sitting in my driveway, but it was not always up to the task of getting me from point A to point B, which is the whole point of owning an automobile. Sometimes, it wasn't so much when I was going to arrive at my destination, it was if I was going to get there at all. That's kind of how I view Premiere. Vegas has never failed to get me there.

John

John, I stand behind my points. They are quite valid.

Big picture, I hope that Sony puts more resources into Vegas development and really updates it with significant features, as hundreds of us have asked for in prior threads here... That would be what we all want best, I think. Better integration, more powerful features.

Here's the thread with unmet Vegas 7 feature requests, over 100 posts, one of the forum's most popular threads ever, I started back in September:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=482598


Ken

I hope Sony continues the great development cycle they have been on.

I'd like Vegas to make my coffee in the morning. It's just not going to happen, though.

We love a program that is based on decade+ old MS video for windows tech that is being staged into more modern platform. That old platform has limitations. The development team, and hopefully their managers and directors, understand the need to create a more solid foundation before they can improve on something like credit rolls and text generators.

They have pushed most of the features to the limit of the underlying core system. Now we need to be patient while they create a solid platform for the future.

At least I hope that's what they are doing ! :-)

We can wish all we want (your unmet Vegas 7 feature requests) and by the way, is coffee making on that list?

And I stand behind mine. If having more features affects Vegas' stellar stability, then I don't want them.

Just spent the day listening to someone curse at PPro 2. All sony really needs to do is compete with core editing (and project management). Make it appealing to edit long form, keep it stable, and get out there with demo systems showing what you need to run Vegas in a multi-suite facility.

At this point, "core editing" includes 10-bit functionality.

Rob Mack

John - why would you use faulty logic, assuming that just because a program has more features it is therefore definitely going to be unstable? That doesn't make sense.

What we want is a stable, advanced feature rich platform that is competitive with other NLEs on the market. I mean sure I can get a nice stable "Yugo" car, but I'd rather have something that looks like a Jaguar (I used to work at Ford WHQ as a quality engineer) but has better reliability and stability.

So we've got a decent model on our hands w/the current Vegas, but we need an Acura, something more world-class, advanced. The basics are great, but more is needed. Kind of like my pc system I upgraded. It's More stable, faster, and more feature-rich than my old pc, but it took me a year longer than I should've, to upgrade it.

I'm a big fan of Vegas, I use it daily, have for years - but many of its features are getting long in the tooth and it really does need a significant overhaul, if it's to become competitive with the new CS3/PP and other NLE apps that are integrating significant new features into their platforms. If you dust off the 3-year old Vegas 4 and compare Vegas 7 to it, you see a few nice-to-have improvements, but it's still basically the same program, with very minor functional enhancements. Nothing major.

Incremental feature adds *are* appreciated (like the media timeline snapping) - but it's time for more strategic, core, significant enhancements to the platform, if it's to remain a serious contender in it's field. If it goes it's current dev path, it will be marginalized, used by hobbyists, as a b-grade low end app, as Adobe kicks it's butt in the marketplace. CS3 is undeniably "getting everyone's attention", as PP and the other NLEs eclipse vegas, if it doesn't 'grow up'.

Most of us nod our head yes with that statement.

Ken

Just before I do any nodding, Ken, I notice that you make many general statements about improvements to Vegas, but I can't work out what you want.

Here's what you seem to be asking for:

> "a stable, advanced feature rich platform"
> "something more world-class, advanced"
> "it really does need a significant overhaul"
> "it's time for more strategic, core, significant enhancements"

Please give a specific example of what you're after.

I think a large part of the problem is trying to work out just what market Vegas is going after, I'd suggest it's probably time to add a 3rd tier to the lineup. The serious users don't want many of the features that are already in Vegas and the current more vocal users don't want what the serious users want.
Seems to me there'd be quite a maket for a 3rd tier product at a much higher price point. All the opposition such as PPro and FCP is just a hodge podge of bits and pieces clobbered together with varying degrees of reliability and integration that's a nightmare to get your head around.
Problem is I think it'd take some serious R&D to get Vegas to the point where it'd be a no hold barred threat to the vastly more expensive systems. Other problem of course is then you're cutting into Avids turf and that could be dangerous.

Bob.

Other problem of course is then you're cutting into Avids turf and that could be dangerous.

....if you only knew how dangerous that can be. Consider that for example...Disney owns major stock in Avid, and ABC owns Disney. that's only one small aspect/tip o' the iceberg. It's all ever so political, and it's a maelstrom that no one wants to get caught up in unless they've got serious, serious money behind the product.
Avid will have a strong foothold for at least the next ten years, simply due to the turtle-like speed at which corporations upgrade, but as time passes, the exclusivity of any application becomes eroded, and the playing field will level out somewhat, at least from my perspective.
That said, I think you're right, Farss. A third level of the application would be terrific, but I'm not sure that the market (or the elite users) are ready for a third level product at a premium price. Additionally, as the playing field levels out, it would include the higher grade app in that leveling process, making the profitability shorter term. That doesn't seem to be an appealing factor.

"John - why would you use faulty logic, assuming that just because a program has more features it is therefore definitely going to be unstable? That doesn't make sense."

Apparently, you have never written a piece of code. One example; Avery Lee, the author of VirtualDub, maintains a blog on his web site where he openly discusses various issues he runs into when implementing new features in VirtualDub. He is a first-rate programmer and VirtualDub isn't nearly as sophisticated as Vegas. Writing stable software is a balancing act and I am continually impressed with how well the folks in Madison have done with Vegas. Premiere v1 was pretty stable and in each subsequent release, it has become less stable as they have added more features. The same can be said of Avid. There IS a direct correlation between complexity and stability.

I have Premiere Pro v2 and I use it because I have a client that runs it and brings projects to me to put on the finishing tweaks. Every time I open Premiere, I'm always wondering if the next mouse click is going to crash it. It happens pretty regularly. That thought never crosses my mind when I'm in Vegas.

You want bells and whistles, I just want to get my work done.

John

Disney owns major stock in Avid, and ABC owns Disney.

Actually, Disney owns ABC. :-)

Bob.

You are overlooking some very important things.

1. Learning any new software WELL isn't an overnight thing, and once you get used to producing good stuff with the software why change?

2. Where are you going to go to find a group of people to help you as good as the wonderful people who participate in this forum.

And I mean with all sorts of problems, not just Vegas. Computer system problems, OS problems, camera and equipment problems, bargains, etc all treated with an enthusiastic desire to help others I doubt could be duplicated on another forum of this type. Most forums of this type seem to have a few "gurus" and everyone seems to ask the same few "gurus" all the questions. Then the poster disappears. Here a LOT of people spend a great deal of time researching past posts for others or other websites for others or Googling for others because they WANT TO.

John

Oops. I knew that, but flurbled it.
Either way...been caught in that mess once...that was enough for me. Avid isn't just a powerhouse in the development/marketing, but politically powerful as well.

There IS a direct correlation between complexity and stability.

Yes, but adding more features doesn't necessarily have to reduce stability, assuming you are able to compartmentalize the new features. (I've been a software developer for 35 years and still sell a fairly complex application that is #1 in its field in competition with larger companies. It sells because of its reliability. Unlike its competitors' products, it doesn't have one single outstanding bug report, since 2 years no less).

Sometimes new features can also increase stability dramatically, too.

Case in point: Toyota Prius. It is packed with "complex" hybrid technology, but the only car in Consumer Reports' New Car Guide that has all components (engine, transmission, electrical, suspension, etc.) in the lowest repair frequency category, based on actual repairs over the last 12 months.

Here as it turns out, the "complexity" actually helps (thanks to good design).

When you brake normally, the brake pads aren't even used. Electronic circuits just transfer an increasing load to a generator, more the harder you press on the brakes, and this is used to charge the propulsion batteries. The brake pads only come in for panic braking, so this helps with the reliability.

The CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) doesn't go bonk-bonk which saves the wear and tear that would be imposed on a regular automatic transmission.

That and much more from 10 years of experience with hybrid design has helped make it the only hybrid car that is truly worthwhile from a financial standpoint currently.

I have had mine for nearly 2 years with not one single problem, which is nice. The propulsion battery has a 10-year warranty, the car a 7-year warranty (everything including service), and I've gotten 52 mpg while passing almost everybody else, either on the freeway or in the city.

I know some enthusiasts have gotten as much as 90 mpg, but pussyfooting doesn't suit my temperament.

With a lot of heavy baggage, the fuel consumption goes up of course. LA-Fresno-LA with 2 people + a full load of suitcases & gear, going up the infamous Grapevine mountain pass, passing everyone else I got 43mpg.

And this is a 5-seat midsize car that can take a 9-foot surfboard inside (I've done it).

I don't use PP2, so I'm just curious if it could be that it is picky about the exact hardware it runs on, in the same way that Avid Express is super picky about the exact models/configurations of PCs it runs on?

Put me down for the third "extreme" version of Vegas - I am ready to plunk down the money :)