Is there a "good" DV codec?

taliesin wrote on 6/20/2004, 1:04 PM

>> The Sony DV codec, which is the default for NTSC DV output, drastically increases the contrast.

Don't know if you mean the one used in Vegas. If so - be sure it actually does NOT touch contrast or luminance in any way. You can have twenty render generations without any changes to contrast or luminance.
So either you mean a different Sony dv codec or you did not really use that one (must take care of some preferences) or there's something going strange with your system.

My suggestion can only be: Use Sony Pictures dv, that one offered in Vegas, because this one is best choice there.

Marco

Jay Gladwell wrote on 6/20/2004, 1:16 PM

The Sony DV codec, which is the default for NTSC DV output, drastically increases the contrast. This is a bad thing because I specifically color correct to a look I want, and I don't want the final output changed at all.

Must be something you're doing before hand, because I'm not getting what you're describing at all. Sony's codec is, without a doubt, the best codec I've seen out there. What are you color correcting on, a computer monitor or an NTSC monitor? There is a BIG difference!

Jay

Lloyd66 wrote on 6/20/2004, 1:28 PM

Heh. I figured this out on my own, thankfully.

The clip I was using had been prepared outside of Vegas (via Premiere Pro trial). When I tried out a clip captured in Vegas, and exported it with Sony DV, the two clips were the same. Go figure! Fortunately, I will now be using Vegas fulltime, so this shouldn't be a problem anymore.

Thanks for the help.

johnmeyer wrote on 6/20/2004, 3:13 PM

The Sony DV codec is the best DV codec. One forum member (who gets ticked every time I mention his tests, but forget his name -- sorry in advance) did a test where he rendered 100 times and could barely tell the difference in quality beteween the original and the 100th render.

The problem you saw is probably from the 16:235 issue. This was discussed again this past week. If you capture in Vegas, you won't have this problem. If you capture elsewhere, you will have to experiment with the "16:235" option in the codec used by that capture application. If you detect contrast shifts, find the option that mentions these numbers, and change it.

Spot|DSE wrote on 6/20/2004, 10:30 PM

That was Kelly/Chienworks, I think that did the 100.
We did a test series of Canopus, Vegas, M$, Huffy, Matrox and Matrox during the Beta of Vegas 3, and Vegas came out at about the same level as Canopus, slightly better on the high end, and slightly less accurate on the low end. That was 3 years ago though. Canopus pops their high end a little on the renders, but you don't notice it until it's rendered out several times and the whites start to degrade. M$ didn't even come close to making the grade, but that was again....3 years past.

AudioIvan wrote on 6/20/2004, 11:24 PM

Sony DV Codec, is that the codec form Vegas or the MainConcept Codec incl. with the encoder?

John_Cline wrote on 6/20/2004, 11:30 PM

The DV codec contained in Vegas was developed by Sony (Sonic Foundry), MainConcept had nothing to do with it..

Sony has licensed the MainConcept MPEG2 software developers kit (SDK) and has adapted it to Vegas for its MPEG2 encoder.

John

joelaff wrote on 6/21/2004, 8:46 AM

For what it is worth...

My observations in testing have been that the Sony codec (the default DV codec in Vegas) does NOT in any way modify the contrast range. It does not adjust 16-235 to 0-255, and it does not map 0-255 to 16-235. This is exactly what you want if you are working with footage that is already 16-235, as most DV captures would be. This way, recompressing for things like effects and transitions does not adjust the contrast. You get out what you put in (range wise).

The Microsoft codec, on the other hand, aside from looking terrible and full of artifacts, does appear to bump the file from 0-255 down to 16-235. This squeezes the dynamic range and reduces the contrast. The MS codec seems to playback linearly, though. So anything in the range of 0-255 compressed with another DV codec seems to play back 0-255 through it.

I noticed that if I unchecked Ignore 3rd party codecs it seems that the Main Concept codec I have installed is being used for playback. The Main Concept codec appears to (at its default settings) determine if the footage being played back is 0-255 or 16-235. It then seems to playback whatever you give at 0-255. In other words it does not modify stuff that is already 0-255, but it expands the range of 16-235 stuff to be 0-255. I am not sure that I like this. I would rather it compress stuff that was 0-255 to 16-235 and leave 16-235 stuff alone.

These observations were pretty quick, and may not be wholly accurate. But it sure would be nice to get a good consensus on this issue.

John_Cline wrote on 6/21/2004, 8:54 AM

I've never noticed the MainConcept DV codec expanding 16-235 to 0-255 while decoding. There is a setting in the MC v2.4.x codec that will allow you to do this, but I don't believe that it's enabled by default.

John

erratic wrote on 6/21/2004, 10:14 AM

In Doom9's forum I read something about the Sony DV Codec. I assume it isn't the same codec that Vegas uses, or is it?

taliesin wrote on 6/21/2004, 10:24 AM

There are two different ones. The one used in Vegas is called "Sony Pictures Digital DV". "Sony DV" is known as a hardware codec which is used in many cameras. Both are not the same. "Sony Pictures Digital DV" was developed by Sonic Foundry. "Sony DV" was developed by Sony.

Marco

joelaff wrote on 6/21/2004, 10:26 AM

Here is the test I base this observation on.

Set up Vegas to ignore 3rd party codec. (It seems that when Ignore 3rd party is OFF the Main Concept Codec is used to decompress and to display.)

Note that using the Main Cocept codec does not seem to modify the values of footage show from the timeline, only those of footage already compressed with the Sony DV codec.

So with Vegas setup as above add the media generator SMPTE bars. These should look correct out to the monitor through your DV deck. Render a range of this to a new track (or selective pre-render). You now have a chunk of bars rendered with the Sony DV codec.

Display this pre-rendered clip and it should look fine.

Now go turn OFF ignore 3rd party codecs (thus enabling Main Concept's... You can see which one is being used by seletcing a DV clip in the Media Pool and looking at what it says in the info line at the lower left of the interface. When ignore 3rd party is off you will see MainConcept as the codec.)

You must restart Vegas for the ignore 3rd party change.

Now re-open your project (you did save it, right ;-) Display of the color bars from the timeline (non-pre-rendered section) should look fine. BUt when you display the segment pre-rendered with the Sony codec if will get bumped to 0-255 by the Main Concept codec.

Render a section of the timeline to the Main Copcept DV codec. This will look correct now with the Main Concept decoder. Now turn ignore 3rd part back ON. Restart Vegas, reload project. Now the section rendered with Main Concept's codec is compressed (blacks are too light, whites are too dark).

I did not modidy any of the MainConcept settings. The 16-235 boxes are OFF. Since Vegas gives you no way to configure the current DV codec used from the timeline there is really no way that I know of to configure the decoder. Now I run all my apps as an unpriveledged user (and would suggest every do for security...) So perhaps those 16-235 checkboxes are persistent if set as an admin user. I have not looked into this (The huffyuv codec is like this...)

So it appears to me that footage compressed with the Sony codec looks different coming through the MainConcept decoder. But the Sony Codec also appears to support a full 0-255, and it does not modify footage as it compresses it. I deduce this from the fact that if I feed the Sony codec a file that is 0-255 I get back a 0-255. If I feed it a 16-235 I get back a 16-235. Nothing is changed. This is a good thing.

taliesin wrote on 6/21/2004, 10:32 AM

>> there is really no way that I know of to configure the decoder.

Can be configured in your Windows system preferences.

Marco

joelaff wrote on 6/21/2004, 11:01 AM

>> there is really no way that I know of to configure the decoder.

>Can be configured in your Windows system preferences.

Can you elaborate? I see no place to adjust this in the Control Panel.

I am on XP Pro SP1.

Anyway, I would expect to be able to change settings for the current decoder used by Vegas *in* Vegas.

taliesin wrote on 6/21/2004, 11:10 AM

Difficult for me because I don't speak english that well. I can only do a word-by-word translation of the steps which maybe does not make too much sense.

Maybe it's the "control panel" in English, don't know. From there:

"sound & audio devices" --> "hardware" tab --> "videocodecs" --> "properties" --> "properties" tab --> "mcdv" --> "properties"

Marco

joelaff wrote on 6/21/2004, 12:20 PM

I guess it is my fault for not guessing that a VIDEO setting would be under "Sound and Audio Devices" ;-) That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard of...

I think I will put the sound config under Video Settings

(It's not your english. It is MS's terrible choice for putting Video under audio settings)

Thanks a lot!

jetdv wrote on 6/21/2004, 1:54 PM

That is the most absurd thing I have ever heard of...

You mean it beats pressing START to turn OFF your computer?

rs170a wrote on 6/21/2004, 4:44 PM

OK, I give up. What is the MainConcept codec called?
I looked and I have nothing in my codec list named"mcdv" or even close to it. What I do have are 2 versions of Indeo, Cinepak, Huffyuv, Matrox VFW codecs, Microsoft MPEG4-V1, Microsoft RLE, MicrosoftVideo 1, msh261.drv, msh263.drv, msyuv.dll and tsbyuv.dll.
BTW, Vegas 5 was a very recent install so I assume that it would've installed the MainConcept codec. Am I wrong? Thanks.

Mike

AudioIvan wrote on 6/22/2004, 3:46 AM

So the Vegas(SF/Sony) codec is hidden & unconfigurable?
Also, how someone will know for sure that when capturing with Vegas Capture App(MainConcept GUI) is using "the Vegas/Sony codec"?

1. If you render as say PAL DV default template and with checked "ignore third party codecs" then you're using the Vegas/Sony codec.

2. If you render as say PAL DV default template and with checked "ignore third party codecs" , video settings-->choose Sony YUV codec what is the result?
The final rendered video looks different for sure!!!

When installing Vegas, MainConcept codec is installed as well(if you know how to find it, and use it), very handy app would be AnalogX to check all your codecs,filters...

taliesin wrote on 6/22/2004, 4:18 AM

>> Vegas 5 was a very recent install so I assume that it would've installed the MainConcept codec. Am I wrong?

If you mean it would have installed the MainConcept DV codec - Yes, then you are wrong. Vegas delivers the MainConcept MPEG-codec, but not the MC dv codec. If you want to use MainConcept DV anywhere on your system you must download this one from the MainConcept web-site and install it manually.

Marco

taliesin wrote on 6/22/2004, 4:24 AM

>> So the Vegas(SF/Sony) codec is hidden & unconfigurable?

Yes.

>> Also, how someone will know for sure that when capturing with Vegas Capture
>> App(MainConcept GUI) is using "the Vegas/Sony codec"?

Capturing via firewire never uses a codec! Capturing via firewire is just a file transfere.
A codec is used when rendering.

To be sure to use Sony Pictures Digital DV you should have "Ignore Third Party Codecs" checked and "Use Microsoft DV Codec" unchecked.
This ensures using Sony Pictures Digital DV codec for rendering if you select the "PAL DV" or the "NTSC DV" template without further adjustments there.

>> When installing Vegas, MainConcept codec is installed as well

No. Vegas does not deliver MainConcept DV. MainConcept MPEG - but NOT MainConcept DV. To use MainConcept DV this codec must have been downloaded by the MainConcept web-site and installed separately.

Marco

rs170a wrote on 6/22/2004, 5:52 AM

"Vegas delivers the MainConcept MPEG-codec, but not the MC dv codec. "

Thanks very much Marco.
I also followed AudioIvan's suggestion and downloaded DXMan from AnalogX. Even though it's in the Audio tools section and is billed as a DirectX utility, it found all the codecs I have installed.

Mike