BillBoy,
Your Swiss Army knife comment is fair enough. We seem to forget just what VV is supposed to be, what the heck, why hasn't VV got a browser window, that'd be useful too, and a spelling checker. Nothing worse than realising you've mispelled "The End" when they air your program :)

Seriously though a set of software scopes might be a good thing to have in your toolkit, but why try to cram all the tools into the one package, uStuff have been making that mistake for years, as you've said many times scopes on capture are useless and probably the whole discussion started off on the wrong foot.

Given that SoFo have already written the code for the scopes, they could pull it out into a separate package to do what some want. That way there's no added overhead to the capture process and you've got a tool to do the camera setup thing.

Mind you apart from cameras with separate CCUs there's not much to tweak on them anyway that zebra will not tell you. And if you're in the realm of cameras with CCUs you can afford real scopes.

Well much as I dislike Final Cut Pro, I don't think that it can be ignored. I have to use it at work and the way they have it set up is that depending on your source, FCP lets you control the input parameters to get the best and truest input which you can check on the live scopes. With reference to doing what the others do, I agree to some extent but SoFo are obviously interested in attracting FCP and Premiere Pro users since they have a competitive upgrade program. If I was a FCP user and liked the live scopes, then I'd want them in Vegas if I switched.

I agree that calibration is very important. What is interesting is that the Vegas bars are very good and even played on some cheap DVD players they provide an excellent tool to do initial setups of monitors. We used to use laserdiscs at work in situations where no signal generator was available but the DVD bars are far superior. So now with Vegas and a sub $100 DVD player, you've got the beginnings of a poor man's signal genny. What's not to like about that?

Live scopes would not always have to be used for capture, perhaps just as a tool for checking a video source. For instance, a dark picture can frequently be caused by wrong termination. A live scope would show that in such a way that anyone who has ever flicked a 75 ohm/Hi-Z switch would recognize.

I don't personally use the trimmer to edit but I don't knock people who do nor would I if someone wanted it enhanced in some way. Good luck to them, I'll just continue not to use it if I don't want to. In the same way with live scopes, if they're not your bread and butter then switch them off.

Regards...

Al

My objection is more of along the lines of 'where does it stop'?

Instead of just focusing on Vegas, lets take a peek a the latest versions of both Nero and Easy CD Creator. Both of which started out as a simple but effective application for burning CD's and later DVD's.

Both now have "gone Hollywood" in that both now added a means to do editing. Primative for sure compared to Vegas, but my point is why (especially Nero which I like and Easy which I'm come to hate) in the #$#%# do they try to be all things to all people? Probably because they fall into the trap of chasing after the all mighty dollar.

Heck, looking at the Nero packaging in the store the other day, their latest version just released, the box now has a silly peek through window showing you also get one of those cheesy label applicators.

So my concern isn't so much that a few may find monitoring an incoming stream useful (sorry, not me) but where does it end? I know some have kidded about it, but really is adding a CD/DVD label making routine or a browser or a spelling checker (I could use that) that far off? It isn't that it couldnt be added but do we really want more bells and whistles limited to a small group that would find such things useful?

While Vegas will continue to evolve and new features added, like Windows has evolved the code can become bloated. Bloated code means worse, not better performance and more things that can go wrong.

The biggest improved feature Vegas could have is FASTER rendering.

Robert,

As you pointed out, it is a digital signal coming over, so the PC based scopes should be fine. There is no A/D converter on a laptop. Nor is one necessary. It is the A/D converter, pre- and post- processing in the camera that we (I) want to observe.

The pro scopes are designed for camera equipment and problems greater than we have. At least greater than I have. For monitoring the effect of changing the various camera settings in a PD150/PDX10, XL1s/GL2, DVX100/DVC80, or DV300 having these scopes on capture would be fine. It would also be nice if you could zoom part of the scopes to see them more clearly (the vector scope has a fixed zoom around the center).

Billy,

No one objects to your way of doing things. What some object to (and I am beginning to join them) is your pejorative descriptions of people and their ideas if they don't agree with you. A contest of insults just drowns out ideas and causes people not to participate.

David

Scroll back up and look at this thread again John.

Jumbo tech said of me: "Sometimes you talk a load of drivel". When I simply pointed out the factual truth. You CAN'T do a damn thing about an incoming video stream no matter how poor it is until it is on the timeline. Seeing that such material is of poor quality prior to that accomplishes what?

Apparently you don't object to Jumbo making a personal attack because he agrees with your viewpoint, but you get pissed-off if someone points out why a wished for "feature" has little merit.

I try to keep my comments in the context of the intent of the forum. VIDEO EDITING with Vegas. You apparently would be interested in using Vegas to correct for errors made during the making of the video or due to something a miss with the camera or putting the cart before the horse.

You said it yourself: "...pro scopes are designed for camera equipment..."

The scopes feature of Vegas are intended to help you see and perhaps correct some shortcoming of poor video work in your source material. To except Vegas to be changed to preview such video as an incoming stream PRIOR to it being loaded on the timeline from where you can attempt to correct it is in my opinion a huge waste of time and not something a video editing application should do.

Please participate. Just be prepared to defend your ideas when someone points out why what you're suggesting doesn't make much sense.

Billy

When I said that you talk a load of drivel, of course I was only "teasing". I don't really see why you say that you can't do anything about an incoming video stream though? If you found that the stream was at let's say about 50 IRE for whatever reason, wouldn't it be better to correct it before it got to Vegas? Also, if Vegas is only a video editor then I guess we don't need color correction??? Who's to say what Vegas is or will become? I agree that I don't want it to become bloated and have just downloded the new Nero finding some of what you say is probably true in that case but is Vegas that huge? The capture utility is a separate program anyway isn't it? Wouldn't a problem corrected before capture save rendering time with filters etc.

By the way, even though you are a grumpy old cuss (only teasing again), I hope your palsy gets better soon. It doesn't sound too nice.

Regards...

Al

I'm rather amazed at so much angst over this issue, if SoFo decide live scopes are what they need to gain market share so long as they can be turned off to reduce CPU overhead all I can say is good luck to them.

Surely though there are far more significant things that would effect ALL of us that deserve this amount of discussion?

How about better text features, some real 3D transistions, nested projects, better audio sync handling. And that's what just popped into my head.

I AM a grumpy old cuss. And yea, the Bell's Palsy thing is making me more so. I also like to argue (teasing really) and yea again if I think I annoyed somebody I may tease them more... just my somewhat warped sense of humor. Grazie figured me out pretty quick and so too a couple others.

To correct any aspect of a DV audio or Video component would require re-compression on the FLY (and greater chance of dropped frames on marginal systems), The DV compression is done in the camera - not on the PC . Whoever first said "capture" and DV together should be (virtual) shot -- it is a transfer completly 100%.

.. Not to say recompression is a bad thing , but not many systems would stand up to TRANSFERING and recompression at the same time (Hard drive issue more than anything)

I myself wish there was audio level adjust as it comes in so i dont have to waste time matching tone afterwards..

Moi?! - BB!! - Sort you out? - Pish 'n Nonsense, my dear boy! I've enough trying to figure out my own life . . .

. . .. . . . ho yes . .that was something near to an exclamation of recognition from William B, I guess . . . .. . . Ahhhhhh . . let me lay back and savour this moment of pure beauty . . let me Capture it in all its intensity . . .and let me . .let me access my Colour Scopes while I capture it too . . . magnificent ! ! ! !

Hey Bills, me ole mucker, how's the eye going? Hope it is starting to come round - yeah?

Take care my friend . . we need you around . . yeah?

Grazie

I'm thinking of changing my nick to either Blinky or Droopy. Maybe Grumpy.

I'm doing a little better thanks, just that progress is so s l o w, that its frustrating.

I wonder if they could just attach the video scope code to display in preview?

Brian

I was referring either to a) Capturing using a DV camera as an analog pass thru in which case you'd be correcting the ingoing analog signal before the Mini DV A to D converted it or b) To those folks not using DV.

Billy, bearing in mind the palsy thing, I think I should have said dribble not drivel.

Regards...

Al

That would have been more funny. Its true too. I never thought I'd have to really concentrate just to drink a $#$(%$ cup of coffee. A little better than in the beginning, but still a task. BTW, I did try a beer through a straw. That didn't seem as strange as trying it with a hot beverage, but still weird.