Canadian. You can convert them back to US $ here:

http://www.xe.com/ucc/

We have done several bundling deals with Canopus but alas I do not have all of their devices right here. Since at least one of you has the ACEDVio, a(nother) question:

Is source timecode (from betaSP or whatever else) preserved when transcoding to DV using this unit? I am pretty sure the unit I checked out had no TC in. If you use AVID Xpress' serial control and this unit, can you recapture with frame accuracy (meaning have you tried it) ?

I do have the Canopus ADVC 100 and the Sony DVMCDA-2- they don't have any method for retaining source tc during transcode to DV as far as I am aware.

Not transcoding SP to DVat all...that's obviously a different thread.

Didn't Spot on say that he does HD by converting his captured HD to DV, edit the DV, then replace all thr DV files with HD file, then render (well, you'd have to change project size to the HD size first).

Would this work for you Jal, or do you need to edit with the BetaSP tapes specifly (ie tape to tape dub).

What city are you in? toronto, vancover?

>>>But using the missing but "much needed" EDL export i upload into my megadollar HD suite. Someone please explain to me how the hell all the FXs get into the EDL, how the hell my megadollar HD suite is going to know how to do exactly what the FX that Satish write yesterday does, and what the heck happens to source TC if I add a velocity envelope.<<<


I think a lot of people are overlooking so basic things - say you make a film - on film. You say you grasp the concept of that. Ok so when you cut the film and you wanted a fade up here and a fade down there and a cross dissolve over there - well let me ask the same exact question - "how the hell do the effects get onto the negative? How the hell does that negative know that I want scene 24 to be color corrected? What the hell happenes to the camera orignals edge numbers when I need to use the same shot again as an effects plate?" Well, you didn't worry about that when you were cutting your film did you? Ok, so maybe you worried but did it stop you from maike the film? Shooting the film? Did you just toss out your flatbed or upright because it was a usless peice of crap in that it couldn't cut your negative for you, create your fades and dissolves, create CGI effects and than telecine it, color correct and print out the work prints? I doubt it.

So lets break it down into simple sections.

1> Shoot the project. Simple enough to understand.

2> get you footage back - either as dailies on film of video dailies. If you shoot on video well you already have your footage back.

3> Ahh - now comes the fun - edit!! Call me old school but when you are editing you should be worried about editing. So at it's root you need to find a way to edit your footage. This is where people seem to start loosing the whole process anymore. If you are using a NLE than you need to get that footage onto a hard drive and have access to it so you can edit. Most people still get this part. It is the method used that people seem to have disagreements with.

4> Editing over. Locked picture. Ok, so now we are locked. What to do now? You need to get that locked picture to a usable form - a form that will be compatable with all of the other people who are also working on the post production portion. What is the common factor that helps everyone stay in sync? TIME CODE! You dump out TC copies with TC windows on them for people to look at or to start working with - cutting effects, doing foley, doing adr and so on. You get the locked print, or if doing film method you send over locked reels - about 10 minutes each, to start being color timed. Along this path if you had any sort of effects shots you have sent out any raw element to the effects people to work on - these are now hopefully cut into the film - if not then there are either roughs or slugs cut to exact length.

5> Final stage - the mix. So now you have all these elements - you have a locked picture, you have locked dialog track, locked M & E tracks and you are more or less ready to sit down with your mixer and start mixing. Again - how do you lock in all these elements? Well if you are mixing on film sync pops and stringing up mag in the back room. If you are cutting on video you need - TIME CODE!! If you are using a combination of both you still would need the TIME CODE. If mixing everything on a hard drive you would STILL need a mthod to lock all this audio up to your picture - TIME CODE.

6> Outputting your final product. back to a basic concept that most everyone gets. All elements are done. You just need to have the lab dump out release prints and your video house dump out your master.

These commonly are all individual steps. Look at most films and watch the credits - do you see one person listed for doing all the post? You can't just think that because you use a product like Vegas that everyone else in the world will also use it. (Likewise you can't assume everyone else is even using a computer and if they are you can't assume they are all working on Windows, Mac, Linux or whatever) Time Code is not going away anytime soon. As for EDL - in the terms of doing an online/offline - it may be slowy slipping away because you can do "online" from your computer, provided you have a high end PC that handles HD, Uncompressed or Film Res materal. (And a method for dumping this out to tape or printing direct to 35mm (or 16mm or 70mm) film via your own film scanner, and I really don't know too many people with those. "I'll just run over to Fry's and pick one up". Yeah right.) However EDL > Film Edge numbers are still around - again TIME CODE needed. So yeah - Vegas is NOT aimed at this high end of a market market so if Sony doesn't want to bother than when people want to shoot film and need a match back they can also move up to a higher end system that provides that. If you need to do true online and need EDL support for it - same thing, just move up to another product that will allow you to do that.

Of course if you are only shooting Mini-DV and are doing it all yourself than you are already a happy camper with only Vegas.

And having said all of that - it isn't to discount what Vegas can do now, or will do in the future. Nor am I suggesting that any other NLE can do it all. What I am saying is that sometimes people do need this sort of workflow and obviously hundreds, if not thousands, of projects are still working with large post production crews and send out material to various people. I get a little 'educational' when people like to discount things like EDL support, deck control or better TC handling with "Why do we need that?" or "No one needs that anymore" because one needs to see the larger picture. It is sort of like Vegas is this little cult item that keeps growing and the more it grows and core fans don't want to see it change. (Remember Bob Dylan got booed the first time he played electric at the Newport Folk Festival. And Shania Twain being a babe with a belly button in Country music? Like that look will ever go anywhere!) And many of these same people love to point out, or question, the fact that it isn't yet considered "pro" and that needs to change. Obviously there are a lot of "pro" users and many other potential "pro" users and maybe the deciding factor is how Sony decide to market Vegas. Will it be only DV? Will it dump DV in favor of HD? Will it be aimed at those making feature films? Only those who want to end up with a DVD or "made for video" release? Or how about any of the above but only as a "finishing tool" for 'any' format and step away from actual editing as a whole? Or will it continue to be sort of the 'Swiss Army Knife" of the NLE world?

I wouldn't suggest that the process is about to become outdated anytime soon. It has its place, for anyone working on big budget productions shot on film it's going to be there for as long as movies are made.

The point I'm really trying to drive home is that those people have the tools that they need. Those tools impose constraints but those who work in that space accept them. There not there because Avid or whoever were too lazy to include them, they are there because of the process.

In my opinion these arguments are in many ways plain stupid. I can do things easily in VV that to do on film or in the offline/online scenario are expensive/time consumming to achieve or require multiple tools. That doesn't make VV better, just because I'd be nuts trying to do a remake of Gone with the Wind with VV doesn't make it limited. These are two very different worlds, not only iwth their own tools but their own languages. I'd suggest 80% of VV users wouldn't even understand the terminology in the world of film.

I do take exception to the idea though that VV is stuck in the world of DV without EDL or CMX. What can be cheaply edited online is growing daily. FCP can online DVCPRO50, VV and FCP can online HD, with some difficulty but that will improve. It wasn't that long ago that the ony way to edit VHS was offline.

BTW, I can still do the whole film process in VV or any NLE for that matter without TC. I can still send a clip to a folley artist and have them send it back to me with their work in it. If they don't feel comfortable about the lack of TC on their screen they can add whatever they want to get their job done. It's more an issue of comfort zone than technical requirements. I'm not suggesting this is a smart way to work, just that it isn't mandatory.

"Is source timecode (from betaSP or whatever else) preserved when transcoding to DV using this unit? I am pretty sure the unit I checked out had no TC in. If you use AVID Xpress' serial control and this unit, can you recapture with frame accuracy (meaning have you tried it) ?"

To my understanding, Xpress deals with the timecode by way of the serial control--not trying to read VITC or the like. I tested out Xpress and indeed I could control a Sony J3 deck, log clips, and then batch digitize them successfully.

WITHOUT serial control, Vegas is forced to use expensive units like the Promax to "translate" RS-422 to firewire. Because Xpress offers serial control, you can get away with using (relatively) inexpensive transcoders like the Sony you mentioned. No need to translate commands--just transcode video.

I don't really understand why this board doesn't add my replies directly below the parent I'm replying to. Am I doing something wrong here? Makes a developing thread tough to keep track of!

TheHappyFriar: The capture, trandcode, edit, replace, render workflow might work--but how do I get the footage into the computer in the first place? I would need another tool that provides serial control wouldn't I? I'm hoping to find the most cost effective method...buying multiple tools, or a $3000 I/O box is not economical at the moment. =(

I need BetaSP timecode to survive its way into the computer. Forget about offline/online for a moment. If my hard drive dies, or I blow out a shot accidentally--how do I get it back? Without timecode, I'm forced to try to remember what the shot was, find it on tape, crash it into the system and then manually edit it back into place. Not good!

Whoops--forgot to actually address your last question! I'm in the mostly unknown Canadian city of Edmonton, Alberta. Think of it as the Canadian Texas. ;)

Filmy: a great summary, and a great post! I couldn't have said it better myself--and haven't!

The expression "old school" sums it up best. This is almost 2004. Wanting, wishing, hoping to do things in the digital world you once could do with flim is well... old fashioned.

My original thread was perhaps poorly worded. Filmy summed it up quite well.

I want to try and summarize my problem without covering too much of the ground that's already been dealt with in this thread.

I need TIMECODE. Forget EDLs for a minute. Forget offline. TIMECODE. It's not going anywhere anytime soon! Timecode is *essential* to editing.

Imagine you've digitized your footage and are nearly finished your edit. You have a media drive go down. Do you try to remember every shot you used and find them on the tapes manually? Do you then digitize them again and manually cut each and every shot back into your edit? Of course not. You simply redigitize using timecode.

In the world of DV--Vegas makes that available to you. In the world of BetaSP--Vegas does not. I'm told Vegas will work with a promax I/O, but that would add $3000 Canadian to the Vegas purchase price. This is not a competitive offering versus Xpress DV (that lets you work with BetaSP timecode out of the box).

The direction Sony decides to take with Vegas will be of great interest to me. I'd love to use it for BetaSP originated material--or BetaSX, D-beta etc.

Timecode. Forget I ever brought up EDLs or offlining--that really seemed to confuse the issue! I asked about EDLs and offlining because that was the workflow I wanted to use--but the issue behind them both was/is timecode.

BetaSP decks don't have firewire ports. (not trying to be condescending-some people may not know) You use serial control such as RS-422 to control the deck and provide your timecode.

You couldn't edit DV and allow for redigitizing without some form of timecode. Dido for BetaSP and beyond. Vegas provides a way to use DV timecode but not BetaSP timecode. Xpress DV does both.

The issue is timecode (provided by serial control). I think I've got that straight now! Sorry for any confusion!

"The expression "old school" sums it up best. This is almost 2004. Wanting, wishing, hoping to do things in the digital world you once could do with flim is well... old fashioned."


I wouldn't mind working with the "new-school" BetaSX--a digital format. BetaSX uses RS-422 serial control for timecode. Vegas won't interface with it unless you drop $3000 canadian for a promax I/O. Xpress works with it out of the box.

This is not simply an "old school" issue I'm afraid.

Um.... I know i'm probley throwing a gallon of gas on a fire, but.... I edit DV and analog. Mix the two a lot. The only time I've used timecode was to cue up Betacam SP tapes at work. I manualy capture all my clips from the DVCPro's, BetaSP's, VHS's, and Hi8's I use. If i delete something, I go back and get it.

Now, I know.. some people are saying "Why? That's stupid!" Well, that's the way i've always done things. I still use DOS a lot too. :)

And some will say "You must only work on short 30s commercials/promos. Well, I do at work. At home with Vegas I don't use timecode, and I've worked on lots of stuff. Some a minute or two, and currently on a 1:30:00 DVD school pep rally DVD with extra footage, etc etc. I do some work for a local TV show, and will even be doing a training video for some nurses, all without timecode.

I have 10 hours of footage to go through. Capture what I want. Find out I accidently deleted a clip, I go back through the file of tapes and re-capture it.

The lesson learned? Be careful in what I do.

So, I don't use timecode. Never have and probley never will. And if my drive goes down? Well, I should of invested some $$$ into a backup system (which I have). And even if I use timecode, a backup would still be a good idea.


I guess since I've never used it, i don't see why you need it. Oh well. I'm just outta date i guess. :)

Thanks. I was wondering because you said most people there use Avid and Toronto and Vancover popped into my mind. With Toronto being as "open" as it is on just about anything, I thought it would be wierd for people there to be "closed" to different editing programs. Never been to vancover, but my sister has, so that's how i came up with that one.

Wow. That's ballsy! I'm on the other side of the fence. I've never *not* used timecode--I cut my teeth on an ACE25. Tape to tape really benefits from timecode! ;)

I can't imagine not using it. I'm not the only one that uses my system, and media has gone missing on more than one occasion--whether through negligence or carelessness--and not my own! Having to remember what shot was where and hunt for it--cut it back in...that would be a royal pain. And working in low res and then bumping up? *shudder*

=)

PS Has anyone noticed that the D/A max has disappeared from the promax website?

No, Edmonton is a relatively small market. There used to be some Media 100s in town, but most are dead. Discreet Edit was purchased by one station, but that didn't go far. FCP is making serious inroads in our market.

I've got family in Vancouver too. Great city. I'll be spending Christmas there this year. My relatives make a habit of calling and bragging about the weather out there--usually while Edmonton is sitting at -30 degrees Celsius!

I guess it depends on your workflow history. Like JAL, I've always used timecode, especially when I need to redigitize for higher resolution. Capture forty minutes of video for a three minute production. When I'm sharing a machine, and disk space is limited, I have to capture at low res first...then batch digitize the final timeline.

BTW, I've never used Vegas, but I'm trying to do my homework in looking for hardware. I'm coming from an Avid background where only certain hardware is supported.

John

JAL, click 'edit account', and change the Forum View to 'Non-threaded'. I find this much easier to read.

Sorry if this has been addressed already.

>>>BTW, I can still do the whole film process in VV or any NLE for that matter without TC. <<<

Ok - I'll bite.

Explain to me, and probably most all of us, how you can shoot on film, edit with VV, and than get your negative cut to match your Vegas edit? To the best of my knowledge VV does not have any means to do this, and you are saying you "still do" it and "without TC" to boot!! So my only guess is when you have your video dailies done you tell your lab "Yeah I would like these with no Time Code and only an edge number window burn". Than you sit there and read, frame by frame, edge numbers and manually write down each shot's edge numbers...taking into account the whole 3/2 pulldown that telecine adds. When done you turn your typed up list over to your negative cutter and a perfect negative conform unfolds.

But that is just my feeble mind trying to comprehend what you said. Please explain your method because even the Sony folk I am sure would love to hear how you are doing it.

I found this and thought it was interesting in light of what this thread is becoming...and it goes in with what I thought and what the TheHappyFriar said -
===========
Sonic Foundry - Fall 2002 catalog.

Vegas Video is the professional's choice for video editing, compositing, audio mastering, and advanced encoding tools. It provides an effcient solution for video production, streaming content, multimedia creation and broadcast production.
=============

Ohhhh...wow. heh heh...also listed in the specs is this little item:

"Imports CMX and Sony EDL's"

Ironic considering I once had SoFo tell me that they have never claimed that VV had EDL support.

So my point is that if some sales person in a store simply read this marketing one would just think that Vegas has (had?) EDL support as well as anything that goes with a "professional's choice" as it relates to many things, including "broadcast production". And this was before the scopes were added and any sort of HD or 24p support.

JAL,
I've used TC once, client gave me a handwritten EDL for some MiniDV footage. Just to help he RESET the TC at the start of every clip he wanted me to use! Took me a while to even workout how to find source TC in VV, that's how relevant it is to me. I like many others here do work that has no source from tape or only a small part of the overall projects assets are on tape. When a HD goes wobbly getting the stuff back off tape would be the least of our problems, 10 or 20 tracks with 100s of FXs and settings would be what causes leaping from tall buildings. There was one guy recently on this forum whose entire projects source was 20,000 stills. Don't know what SP decks with 422 are going to do for him.

I'd suggest if loosing your assets are a drama RAID arrays are pretty damn cheap these days, at least compared to pro VCRs. I'd throw in a decent UPS as well. That way your entire project, assets, EDL, FXs etc is safe. I'd suggest doing that even if running an Avid where you can redigitize. If that's a bit too expensive how about DLT, if something does go pear shaped restore is much faster than real time. I also cannot understand why anyone considers HD space an issue, I'd imagine HDs are cheaper than SP stock these days.

Obviously the way you work suits what you do and in many situations it's going to be the only way it'll be done for as long as I can see. You obviously work in an environemnt where everyone understands TC, not just the editors but the cameramen and everyone down the chain. But I've seen so much grief caused by the obsession with TC when the chain is broken. I've had guys try to tell me they'd have to reshoot a scene because they lost the TC. You try to explain to them so long as the images are intact they can still use the footage but they just don't get it.