It records, It crashes..

imac wrote on 4/22/2004, 4:28 AM
I record multiple tracks in V5, push stop and cursor returns to '0', I record again and when I stop Vegas crashes. 100% of the time.
Looks like I'll be working in 4 for a while yet...

Whats up with midi controllers not 'working' a lot of the time, or else not until they pass the null?

I use this hardware on two other apps where they work flawlessly , but not in Vegas?
I am using the generic thing, but thats what I use in my other apps too. They support toggle/switch etc in generic why cant Vegas?
They feedback to the hardware so faders update virtual positions etc but thats not happening in Vegas?
Why cant the hardware in generic automate the envelopes? Otherwise whats the point of having hardware control?
These other implementations of hardware control are excellent, why not learn from them?


pwppch wrote on 4/22/2004, 7:50 AM
>>Whats up with midi controllers not 'working' a lot of the time, or else not until they pass the null?
If you mean that you must "match" up the surface fader with the current app position, this is the only way that makes sense. If it didn't match up before it changed the value, then you could change it on the GUI and then touch a fader and have it jump.
imac wrote on 4/22/2004, 3:38 PM
I mean that the virtual and physical positions have not changed, so say I then go back to move the hardware fader again it does not have effect so I have to move back past where I started to catch it

It works fine in other apps, so is it Vegas being fussier in that the "new" value sent by the hardware (the next incremental move) is considered to different from the virtual position so ignored? In this case it is too sensitive because neither the physical or virtual faders have moved.

I use a Yamaha promix and 2 Tascam DM1000's? I think they are called..

Where can I tell it to toggle/switch?

Thanks for your reply Peter. I can see you are very busy on this forum at the moment! A bit of a hard time for you I'd say! Your presence and patience is appreciated by all. Remember when you are answering an individuals question in fact you are answering to many people who are reading these posts and identify with the questions.

Thanks for the good work, the fact that Vegas is my professional tool of choice regardless of any other system at any cost means you are doing something right!
Hardware control has always been a sore point though, so V5 is a breakthrough for the professional environment
PipelineAudio wrote on 4/22/2004, 4:15 PM
"The generic controller does not support feedback to the device from Vegas.


it is possible to one day change this right? Everything about vegas has always been so customizable, not to complicate things too much, but it would be nice to be able to throw whatever controller at vegas and have it communicate both ways. I tried nuendo 1 with some old yamaha digital mixer and it worked fine, you just had to tell it what to do to setup

I do like the first choice of the mackie though and am pretty satisfied with your implementation of it, I would like to be able to at least customize the F keys, or hopefully to have an easier way to see what each key does. If you look at the controller preference, its kinda hard to tell. A mode where if you hit a button it tells you what that key is assigned to would be cool
pwppch wrote on 4/22/2004, 7:46 PM
Ok, I follow you now. You should not have to move through it after you have locked it up.

Yes, I have seen this and have been working on improving the "null" point detection. I will make sure to get it addressed in an update. No, I don't know when the update will be.

pwppch wrote on 4/22/2004, 7:49 PM
>>Where can I tell it to toggle/switch?

You have to assign a "button" on the surface to a function in the Generic driver configuration box. What do you want to toggle/switch?

I don't know much about Yamaha or the DM1000s, so I can't help you with the specifics.

pwppch wrote on 4/22/2004, 7:50 PM
What driver did you use in Nuendo? What template? What Yamaha mixer?

imac wrote on 4/22/2004, 8:18 PM
but what is the "function in the generic driver configuration box" it is targeting, I dont see that
imac wrote on 4/22/2004, 8:20 PM
Nuendo and Soundscape both work fully in their Generic mode with any midi input
MJhig wrote on 4/22/2004, 8:39 PM
How 'bout answering Peter's question...

What driver did you use in Nuendo? What template? What Yamaha mixer?

This would help him and other forum readers.

PipelineAudio wrote on 4/22/2004, 8:56 PM
Im almost positive it was a yamaha 01v

I just used the generic mixermap in nuendo, I dont know anything about any drivers.

Someone left the console sitting at the studio so I thought I'd give it a whirl as a control surface. I just set up the generic mixer and choose the odes and things, memory is a little fuzzy. The touch feature sucked compared to how it works with the mackie control in vegas 5 but it was certainly useable.

I also tried it thru my soundscape mixtreme and it worked fine, but in that case there was no feedback
imac wrote on 4/22/2004, 9:09 PM
mixtreme and all Soundscape products work like a dream with hardware contollers

Soundscape does feedback with the generic map, so something wasn't set up right with pipelines attempt

I think Nuendos implementation is also excellent for generic maps, there is nothing these apps can't do as far as controls etc. A specific driver is required for text, timecode display etc
PipelineAudio wrote on 4/22/2004, 11:58 PM
imac who are you? Are you one of the early gang of Vegas guys but with a new name? There were a few of us who were mixtreme nuts, and I miss em.
pwppch wrote on 4/23/2004, 6:54 AM
Don't really follow you, so I will give you an example of setting up a switch.

(I will assume that your MIDI input port is assigned correctly and that MIDI input is working.)

We will assign a channel Mute to a button.

- Open the Generic Control driver's configuration dialog.
- From the View Function Group combo box, select "Channels", which is the default.
- Select "Channel 1 Mute" in the list view.
- Click the learn check box.
- Press and hold a button on your surface.
- The MIDI msg recieved should fill out the Ch, MIDI Message, and MIDI data columns of the "Channel 1 Mute" row.
- You have assigne the "press" of the button to the Mute command. If you now release the button and your surface sends out a MIDI msg for the release, the assignment to the Mute command will change to this msg. In order to use the "press" of the button, press the button on your surface again, and before you release it, uncheck the learn button.

Alternatively, if you know the exact MIDI msg sent by your surface, you can manually set the MIDI msg, data, and channel by double clicking on the Mute command to open the "Edit dialog". You can also do a learn from this dialog.

Let me know how this works.


pwppch wrote on 4/23/2004, 6:55 AM
>>Nuendo and Soundscape both work fully in their Generic mode with any midi input
That's great, good for them. Glad to hear it. They rock!

pwppch wrote on 4/23/2004, 7:08 AM

I take it your point is

Why can't Vegas do it they way Nuendo and others do it?

I get it, there is no need to repeat yourself, but feel free to if it makes you feel better.

Bottom line is we don't currently work that way. We will be improving this feature over time. That is why we implemented the notion of "drivers".

FWIW: The goal for Vegas 5 was the Mackie Control Universal and a simple, but limited Generic Driver. We knew that we would not support every device out of the box. We also knew there would be complaints from users because their particular device would not be fully supported - if at all - out of the box.

Please submit a feature request describing the details of what you want. (You can even email this to me directly if you'd like.)

Rednroll wrote on 4/23/2004, 8:41 AM
imac, I've seen this same problem with my Yamaha mixer. I've sent further information to Peter. I'm highly confident it will be addressed.

Maybe it's something I'm doing wrong? Peter, when you have Vegas "Learn" using the generic driver, I find when I move the fader it learns the first message sent to it. Should I continue to move the fader through it's entire range of motion, so Vegas learns every position when I first set this up? I find after it learns then I go to use it, in the track view then again, I have to go through the entire range of motion for it to start working properly. The problem is, as long as I'm moving that particular fader it will function properly, but if I slow the motion down or stop using it for like 10 seconds and go back to that fader, then I must have to go through the entire range of motion for it to relearn it.

So my thinking is, that when you do the Learning with the generic driver, it should learn the entire range of commands being sent, then when you go to the track view, it recognizes that particular event being sent from the hardware fader and understands the current track fader position.
PipelineAudio wrote on 4/23/2004, 9:39 AM
Peter, I think the point and confusion here, is that it seems like there could be a full function generic thing and leave us to sink or swim on our own devices, and free you up from dealing with most of this.

Or does that open a whole nother can of worms?

And is the specific driver thing on the mackie what makes it so very much less clunky than the generic on nuendo?

It IS awfully fast for a midi controller
pwppch wrote on 4/23/2004, 9:44 AM
The entire range does not need to be learned. However, if the device inquestion sends a range that is less than 128 descreet values (or 16K values for a MSB/LSB pair) then you have to set the Max value range.

However, we have discovered two bugs in 5.0a:

- The max value is not getting set.
- The "null" point match on the faders is getting lost forcing a rematch. The reason that this will happen during slow fader moves is that the touch timeout is getting reset since the fader is not touch sensitive - or if it is the Geneneric Driver does not pay attention to it. The auto touch time out is by default 1 sec, so very slow fader moves can be lost. There is an internal pref

Automation non-touch release(ms)

that you can set to increase this. However, this will not fix the overall null pass through bug.

It will be fixed in the next update. No, I don't know when that update will be released.


pwppch wrote on 4/23/2004, 9:53 AM
>>Peter, I think the point and confusion here, is that it seems like there could be a full function generic thing and leave us to sink or swim on our own devices, and free you up from dealing with most of this.

Or does that open a whole nother can of worms?
I understand this. I am NOT disagreeing with you or imac. Really.

>>And is the specific driver thing on the mackie what makes it so very much less clunky than the generic on nuendo?
Don't have clue as to what you are saying here.

>>It IS awfully fast for a midi controller
Again, I don't know what you are saying.
PipelineAudio wrote on 4/23/2004, 10:33 AM
with the 01v, in nuendo for instance, moving more than one fader at a time was pretty laggy. I dont see this on the mackie controller.

I guess Im a little more skeptical than you about whether third parties will release a *good* driver. That mackie control for instance seems full of promise if it were more customizable. I could only imagine less functionality from a johnny come lately control surface vendor.

I could see tascam and yamaha making really good ones
pwppch wrote on 4/23/2004, 3:09 PM
We are on a learning curve here - both Sony and our users.

I hope to promote a set of standard practices for any IHV that developes drivers for their hardware and Vegas 5. We want some consistancy so that no matter what external device you are using, if you walk into a studio with a Vegas a vendor X's surface device, you will feel confortable from the get go.

imac wrote on 4/23/2004, 11:36 PM
Sorry Peter!

I'm not trying to point out the benefits in other software.
I was attempting to highlight other models of operation that are good to learn from.
And that 'generic' modes can be quite satisfactory, and like pipe says, with at least a fully operational generic driver you can leave everyone to their own devices to get some functionality from their own hardware.

As I have said I'm just thankful to have this control at all! (at least by the next update)

All my comments are not pressing for immediate attention, I am wanting to contribute to the ongoing development at what ever schedule Sony sets, but I suppose my posts are in some way a lobby for some priority from the perspective of my unique requirements
imac wrote on 4/23/2004, 11:46 PM
I probably have used a different name in the past
I have been using Vegas since the original public beta way back when...

It was the first PC software that was good enough in workflow to compete and draw me away from my Soundscape HDR (the measure to which all other apps aspire!)

The Soundscape's have long been put to bed, but I still use mixtremes as part of my i/o arrangement, as they are the missing link to make Veags usable with outboard fx, etc

I will use mixtremes to create multiple cue mixs controlled by hardware faders, even if I use another device for the Vegas i/o

imac wrote on 4/27/2004, 4:33 PM
so yes I can assign a hardware switch to a vegas one.
The hardware sends two values one for 'on' and one for 'off'
(min and max)
Either of these two can be assigned to the Vegas function as Peter describes above

But this means to turn a virtual button eg 'mute' requires two presses to turn on and two presses to turn off, as only one of the two values will fire the alternating two positions of the virtual mute button.

So I would expect the vegas switch to alternate on receiving the one 'message'? rather than the value (0 or 127) so it would behave as a switch. This is the method I am accustomed to and would assume the only way the hardware control could be useful.

So there is no way to achieve this in Vegas currently?