Just trained Vegas for Broadcast this week

FrigidNDEditing wrote on 7/18/2008, 4:31 PM
Hey guys,

It's a little OT, but I just got back from training a pretty large broadcasting company out on the east coast on Vegas for use with their XDCam work flows. It was a bit of an eye opener for me and a big eye opener for them. I don't do ENG so the way they work is different from my natural workflow, but they seemed to like Vegas ( no surprise there) and they were cuttin like mad by the time I left. I wasn't surprised to hear things like, "oh man, that's great, I only have to do this now? I used to have to X, Y, and sometimes Z 3 or 4 times before I could move on before." and "This really renders pretty fast" ( and that was just a on a juiced up laptop ).

It was a good time, and a fun experience ( the guys there were great ), and I had my first real east coast philly cheese steak (most of my traveling has been on the western half of our country). I was doing training for Vegas as a field editor, but as we went along, they learned vegas so fast that we had the opportunity to take them into more in depth tools. I had a great time, and just thought I'd share that Vegas is being used at one more broadcast level company. (I didn't say who it was on purpose in case you ask :), that's between them and the company they contracted me through so I'm afraid I won't say).

Anyway, all you Vegas editors out there, enjoy and have a good weekend, after all that I think I'm going to .... well sleep a lot :P. (as I schedule shoots to start with the talent at 9:00 in the morning tomorrow :) ).

Dave

Comments

blink3times wrote on 7/18/2008, 8:22 PM
Nice to hear.

I'm quite happy to see that Vegas usage is on a DRASTIC rise and has been since V8 has appeared. Just about all the major sites you go now you hear Vegas mentioned in some fashion. Other NLE's seem to be going flat like the Avid products, but Vegas keeps on rising. I'm not sure I feel so secure as to say we'll ever catch up to the likes of FCP..... but we're far from being left behind in the dust.

How was that steak BTW?
UlfLaursen wrote on 7/18/2008, 8:30 PM
Very nice Dave...

I think it all comes down to 'hands on' demos and trials. Pepople have to try for themselves.

I am involved in somthing called videomarathon in Denmark, where people have to shoot for 24 hrs. and then edit for 8 hrs. all on the same subject. There is one for children and one for adults:

http://www.videomarathon.dk/uk/forside_engelsk.asp

This year we are going to put Vegas moviestudio on all the PC's, and I am really exited about it, and hope this way also to get more vegas users in Denmark...

Yes, have a great weekend all here... :-)

/Ulf
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 7/19/2008, 5:43 PM
how was the steak?

Prolly one of the best I've ever had ( though my palette may be somewhat limited ).

I gotta say though, it makes a person feel good about the software they use for some reason, when you hear other people talking about how nice it is. In fact I was speaking to someone just the other day and they asked what do I use? as they listed off a couple, and Vegas was in the shortlist which surprised me a little, but I think it's really been a good couple of years for Vegas and the size of it's user base.

I really enjoyed the experience too because ENG is not my playground so I got to see another facet to why vegas is so good too :).

Dave
randy-stewart wrote on 7/20/2008, 2:46 PM
Excellent Dave. You're making my mouth water...and not because of the steak sandwich. Must be having a great time, eh? Keep us up to date.
Randy
Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/20/2008, 4:50 PM
FrigidNDEditing said:

"ENG is not my playground so I got to see another facet to why vegas is so good too..."

The sad part is those who work in newspaper who are having to make the jump to shooting video are being told they more or less have to edit on MAC's using FCP.

The comments about "oh man, that's great, I only have to do this now? I used to have to X, Y, and sometimes Z 3 or 4 times before I could move on before." and "This really renders pretty fast" are indicative of why the Newspaper Video Yahoo group asks quesitons around doing things in post that are so bloody simple in Vegas Pro - yet they are blinded by Mr Job's spin doctoring ad wizards with the notion that working in FCPis the professional way to do things in video.

I'd be curious to hear more about what you ended up doing - either here or privately via email as I advocate Vegas Pro to those solovj's I correspond with who are entrenched in the MAC way of editing - seems they feel using Windows is some sort of blasphemy.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com
winrockpost wrote on 7/20/2008, 4:58 PM
Glad to hear it fridge, nice to get a gig teaching ,no better feeling in my opinion be it teaching vegas, fcp or science class.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 7/20/2008, 7:24 PM
that's great news! I had the same response when I get Vegas in a TV station for promo cutting ~6/7 years ago (vegas 4).

BTW, if you can use sliced sirloin steak instead (local meat shop sells it). Not sure what you had, but compared to any philly cheese steak I've had, the sliced sirloin blows it away. Heard it's better in PA though, never got one there. :)
Spot|DSE wrote on 7/20/2008, 11:01 PM
The sad part is those who work in newspaper who are having to make the jump to shooting video are being told they more or less have to edit on MAC's using FCP
Not at the AP they're not. We've trained them in several cities.
It's true, there are those that buy into the Mac over PC in some areas, but overall, most news orgs are PC-based, and the cost of entry into the Mac world for most news orgs is nearly 6 times that of a PC for the XDCAM, EX, etc workflow, storage, and speed such as no-recompress, proxy, etc. The organization Dave is referring to is huge, one of the largest. yet they're also one of the smaller orgs in the grand scheme of things. Vegas is found in many, many places, but we don't hear about it here, nor in the marketing because there is simply too much intimidation factor in the media industry from one of the big NLE manufacturer/developers.
Folks would probably be stunned if they knew some of the very large orgs that use Vegas as a daily staple.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/21/2008, 6:47 AM
Spot said:

Folks would probably be stunned if they knew some of the very large orgs that use Vegas as a daily staple.

Stunned - not me, I'd just smile

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com
p@mast3rs wrote on 7/21/2008, 7:22 AM
"Folks would probably be stunned if they knew some of the very large orgs that use Vegas as a daily staple. "

Shame that will never happen though. I suppose this will always be one of the reasons Vegas will garner any serious respect by editors or post houses. I assume the line of thinking is that if those that use Vegas are ashamed, embarrassed, or intimidated by its use, then it is confirmed by the secrecy or companies unwilling to share their experiences with Vegas. This is why we have countless threads that pop up from time to time asking if Vegas is a pro tool, the future of Vegas, how to get Vegas more respect, etc...

One has to wonder at some point, if Vegas really does have the penetration that some claim based on the fact that hardly any major or even mid-majors claim to even know what it is, much less use it. I don't doubt for a second that there are companies using it but until Sony actually learns to leverage this marketing opportunity by showcasing who uses their products, Vegas will continue as it has climbing up the hill after the Avids, Adobes, and Apples.
ChipGallo wrote on 7/21/2008, 7:55 AM
Sony had better get their support house in order before bragging about corporate penetration. I just can't see the Mac FCP users dealing with the show-stopping Windows Vegas platform errors I have seen and troubleshot. It's great that they are beta testing the HD capture module but I'm here to say that 40 hours into an edit, I had to change my work flow to accommodate workarounds on an HD bug in Vegas 8b.

Otherwise I really like the product and have been a user since Vegas 3. There is no doubt that the "bang for the buck" quotient is higher on the Windows PC. Been shopping for a quad core Mac lately? $$$
GlennChan wrote on 7/21/2008, 8:03 AM
until Sony actually learns to leverage this marketing opportunity by showcasing who uses their products
Check out the front page of Sony Creative Software... it links to this.
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/video/video.asp?file=showcase/stroudfinal&title=Les+Stroud+discusses+Sony+Products&VideoPref=medwm

;)

(Ok ok, then again... how many people know about that?)
farss wrote on 7/21/2008, 8:23 AM
"(Ok ok, then again... how many people know about that?) "

Well I did but I'd never show something that badly shot to promote a NLE. That video would be an instant turn off.

Last time I was at NAB I stopped by all the big players, Avid, Apple, Adobe, Quantel, Scratch, IRIDAS, Eyeon. Everyone of them has footage from major league productions to demo their products being used in. And what does SCS have, footage of kids on skateboards that looks like it was shot on a handycam by teenagers. I just cringed.

What was the response here when I suggested Vegas needs to be able to read DPX files?

How long has it taken to get a working 10bit YUV pipeline through Vegas, heck I still can't find out for sure if it works even now. Vegas is about the only NLE that doesn't do what is bread and butter for the broadcast industry.

Not to put a damper on things but we need to be realistic about just what Vegas is and isn't.

Bob.
p@mast3rs wrote on 7/21/2008, 8:37 AM
If Les Stroud is what Sony is going to hang its hat on, color me very unimpressed as I am sure others will be unimpressed with him as well.
tumbleweed2 wrote on 7/21/2008, 9:26 AM

Stroud was put there for the wannabe's...(not a bad thing)

Did Sony ever intend Vegas to be used by the Broadcaster or large production houses?

I personally don't believe so... you would see more resources thrown into it, if that were so.

I think they intended this for the smaller indie post production house market, with small budgets, who does ocassional work for some big name client, who don't mind not seeing Avid as part of their tool set.
p@mast3rs wrote on 7/21/2008, 9:40 AM
I definitely agree and think that is why we have yet to see something major cut on Vegas and promoted that way.
mcvap wrote on 7/21/2008, 9:40 AM
all the big players, Avid, Apple, Adobe, Quantel, Scratch, IRIDAS, Eyeon. Everyone of them has footage from major league productions to demo their products being used in. And what does SCS have, footage of kids on skateboards that looks like it was shot on a handycam by teenagers.
SCS the man is right (sorry ,can't keep my eyes closed) if you already show a footage at least use a pro persons to do the job (in that case a pro photographer),les stroud seem a very talent cinematographer ,he deserve it we deserve it the next vegas user deserve it,SONY GROUP deserve it.
SCS time for a promotion footage that show vegas ,what can it done and edited in vegas.

Not to put a damper on things but we need to be realistic about just what Vegas is and isn't

I have no doubt that vegas has it place on broadcast industry already,
but SONY GROUP can do much more to marketing and developing the software division as other SONY's divisions to the broadcast industry.
SONY we just want to "see hear play shop" more from VEGAS.
Spot|DSE wrote on 7/21/2008, 9:44 AM
NO ONE, including me, will ever dare take on AVD again in terms of saying "We switched from Avid to FCP" or "We switched from AVID to Vegas." Not if they want to keep their jobs. AVID is ruthless about this. Witness one senior producer at a major network being terminated after 28 years at the network, simply for saying that they were impressed with Vegas and were using it on a daily basis to cut news.

Vegas is perfect for ENG. Perfect for field editing ENG. Those that don't think it is haven't worked in that world. Vegas is *less* suited for indie film production than it is for ENG, and it does fine for indie film, docco, etc work. ENG is simple. In fact, IMO, Vegas is too powerful for most ENG work. Which is why our ENG clients have asked us to create a simple interface that doesn't include most of the bells/whistles. Vegas with Broadcast Assistant is a powerhouse tool for ENG use.
For post production...not nearly as well suited, although there are many post-houses using Vegas as a conversion tool
rs170a wrote on 7/21/2008, 10:04 AM
Vegas with Broadcast Assistant ...

Spot, can you tell us any more about this tool?

Mike
Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/21/2008, 11:37 AM
Spot said:
Vegas is perfect for ENG. Perfect for field editing ENG... and it does fine for indie film, docco, etc work.

This is where I have advocated to other newspaper video shooters - that Vegas is the perfect tool for the kinds of content they shoot - but they're all still hung up on working in a 3 or 4 point editing application when in reality - given the time constraints they work under, Vegas is the best tool for news/documentary shooters. All you need is cuts, dissolves, basic titling and color correction - and handling audio on the timeline is money from my experience. Although I've never used it - it sounds to me that Vegas would go head to head with Avid Newscutter for tight deadline editing - correct me if I'm mistaken. The whole realm of news content is really moving to the web - so who needs all the extra features that the AAA apps provide???

I just don't buy the notion that the AAA apps are better for this kind of content production. If you want to make an indie film - fine, use one of the AAA apps, but for ENG/Documentary shooters - Vegas is by far the best tool for post work IMO.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt | SoloVJ.com
farss wrote on 7/21/2008, 4:08 PM
I've never used Avid's Newscutter however a local network has switched from Avid to FCP apart from their ENG, it's still Newscutter and I think a very old version as well. Spot's pretty much nailed in, for ENG one track and cuts are not just all you need it's all you want to give journos to fiddle with. They don't want these guys playing with CC or audio levels, they've got departments with the right tools and right people for those tasks. Then again from what I can gather if the cameraman comes back with footage that really needs CC he'd be looking for a new career, same goes for the audio. You shoot it and record it to go to air, as is.
Now VJ is a different field to broadcast ENG and one that's got another set of needs. It's one grown out of the print media but I'm not even certain what its future is even, let alone which NLE should be used for it. Vegas would certainly seem an ideal fit for the task, no argument there.

Bob.
marks27 wrote on 7/21/2008, 7:13 PM
Hi Spot,

Out of curiosity, could you provide a bullet-point list of the ways that you feel Vegas is not so well suited for post-production?

Thanks,

marks
Spot|DSE wrote on 7/21/2008, 8:53 PM
but they're all still hung up on working in a 3 or 4 point editing application when in reality - given the time constraints they work under, Vegas is the best tool for news/documentary shooters. All you need is cuts, dissolves, basic titling and color correction - and handling audio on the timeline is money from my experience.

Cliff,
I use and train 3 point editing for ENG quite regularly. At least a week a month.
Simple steps...
~double click to open in Trim
~I/O for in/out points (I usually mark a Region w/R as well)
~"A" to Add to timeline
~Repeat

Narrative/walkup/standup may go before or after cuts to timeline
Insert graphics package if necessary, but if it's going to sat or fibre, that's usually done at the bureau level.
Went head to head with the "best editor" at a major network last week. With no respect to my talents, I kicked his ass as he worked in FCP. I output a file via the Convergent Design SD Connect and my laptop before he was even close to being finished. We had the same graphics packages, same XDCAM source. It's not skill, it's the tool and workflow.
Vegas is fast, and that's the benefit for ENG/VJ.
Cliff Etzel wrote on 7/21/2008, 9:33 PM
Spot said:

"I output a file via the Convergent Design SD Connect and my laptop before he was even close to being finished. We had the same graphics packages, same XDCAM source.

LOL - NICE SPOT! Thanks for the workflow tip - I'll be adding it to my own :)