Kodak playsport and VMS10HD P

bartman wrote on 11/29/2010, 10:51 AM
Does anyone else have problems processing files produced with this camera?

I can only load about 30 clips into the media bin before any new ones show just a green preview window and/or VMS crashes.

I initially couldn't play them in VMS either, but found some informtion about changing the .MOV extension to .MP4. That seemed to fix the play back problem, but I still can't load anymore than 30/35 clips without issues.

What might be the problem/fix for this? I have waiting 10 days for technical support to respond but no indication at all that there is even any life at Sony to respond. In the meantime the program has been sitting idle as I have far more than 30 clips to import.

Thanks in advance.



musicvid10 wrote on 11/29/2010, 10:57 AM
Please post your system specs including RAM.
Since these clips are pretty heavy on resources, you may be hitting the page file pretty hard after 30 clips or so. How long are they?
Eugenia wrote on 11/29/2010, 11:51 AM
Download the Vegas Pro 10 trial version, and install in parallel. Load all these files, and see if Pro 10 is able to handle them without crashing.

If yes, then all you have to do is either upgrade to Pro 10, or wait for a free update for the Platinum 10, that might bring it to the same codebase as the Pro 10 one.

If no, then you must re-encode your MOV files to a format that's more stable, and faster to decode. I'd suggest the $100 Cineform NeoSCENE utility, but if you prefer to do the job for free, you can try Avid DNxHD, or Matrox mpeg2 AVI. All the sections after section 3 (including section 3) on this article is good for your case too: http://eugenia.queru.com/2010/03/14/starting-up-with-a-dslr-and-sony-vegas/
bartman wrote on 11/30/2010, 8:15 AM
Thanks I will check out the links.

In the meantime, the system is a quad core 2.1 with a 500 gb hard drive with about 300 gb free space, Vista home premimum and 2GB memory.

The clips total about 14 gb with the largest being 2 gb. Most are much smaller.

I'm not keen on converting formats as I have never seen one yet that kept the same quality after the conversion.

musicvid10 wrote on 11/30/2010, 11:23 AM
With green frames, I always think memory. Search the forums for some tips on freeing up memory for Vegas. It's possible you are hitting the page file, but then 14GB on the timeline doesn't sound excessive.

The suggestion to download the Vegas Pro 10 trial and test your files is a good one. Some specific tweaks for Kodak files were made in that release.

In the meantime, shooting 720 rather than 1080 will give you smaller, more nimble files with surprising quality.
bartman wrote on 11/30/2010, 7:40 PM
I could try the Vegas Pro trial version, but see no use for it in solving this problem. If it works I still won't be upgrading to the pro version. I simply do not need the pro version.

As I understand it the editor really is only marking the media files to reference when rendering so I do not agree with memory issues being the issue. I should be able to have hundreds of files sitting on the HD and in the media bin.

I had endless problem with VMS 8 and was to be given a free upgrade to the next version which never happened and now it appears I can have endless problems with version 10 too. Won't make that mistake again.

Going on 2 weeks now with zero response from Sony and no editing ability.

Shooting in 720 won't help with the existing material that can't be edited except in 30 second chunks.

Eugenia wrote on 11/30/2010, 7:50 PM
>I could try the Vegas Pro trial version, but see no use for it in solving this problem. If it works I still won't be upgrading to the pro version. I simply do not need the pro version.

There is a reason to try it. Vegas Pro and Platinum share 99% of their codebase. Vegas Pro 10 is a bit newer than Platinum 10. If Pro trial works, then there's a VERY GOOD chance that the (potential) next free update of Platinum 10 will also be fixed. So at least you would know that you have something to wait for, and that until that day comes, you can use an intermediate codec to do the job.

Installing Pro and testing it will only take you 10 minutes. It won't interfere with your Platinum installation.

>I do not agree with memory issues being the issue. I should be able to have hundreds of files sitting on the HD and in the media bin.

No, because when you put them in to the media bin, Vegas does some work behind the scenes with cashing and stuff. So there is potential for crash there if it's not optimized for these formats.

Until a Platinum 10 update (if it ever comes), just follow the tutorial I linked for you, or try tweaking your memory availability as musicvid mentioned. You have no other choice. Either that, or change your video editor.
musicvid10 wrote on 11/30/2010, 7:51 PM
"I could try the Vegas Pro trial version, but see no use for it in solving this problem. If it works I still won't be upgrading to the pro version. I simply do not need the pro version."

I guess you didn't read the post originally suggesting that.

"As I understand it the editor really is only marking the media files to reference when rendering so I do not agree with memory issues being the issue."

No, MOV files use the Quicktime lib which loads them into memory. Memory loading with QT files is not unheard of, and Sony is constantly making adjustments.

Others have suggested running through TSMuxer, which does not convert. Might give it a try.

Since I downloaded the VMS10 trial, and tested it with zi8 files, I think your situation must be less hopeless than you think.

bartman wrote on 11/30/2010, 8:30 PM
No, I am acknowledging the idea posted that I could try the pro version, but since I do not plan to spend $400 + dollars on the pro version even if it does work it is pointless. I need VMS working.

I still don't buy the memory thing. What the system can't hold in RAM it spools to the HD and from what I have read 15GB in files is not a lot or too much for it to handle. I have seen a few threads where others have also run into a limit to the number of clips allowed in the media bin. Some have been able to solve their issues others have not. There doesn't appear to be a firm solution.

This is the first I've heard of TSMuxer so will look into that. There has been no mention of it elsewhere in this thread. Does not convert?

You tested it with Kodak playsport files? Did you load it up with at least 15 or more gigs of data and more than 30 clips? I'm curious if you did and how your system specs compare to mine then.



Byron K wrote on 11/30/2010, 11:25 PM
When you load your 14GB project, what is the workstation's Task Manager Physical Memory utilization? Get to this screen by pressing Ctrl + Shift + Esc.

See if the PC's memory is pegged
aquaholik wrote on 12/1/2010, 10:14 AM
Yes, the playsport does not play well with VMS10 for me either. My solution is to use Windows Live movie maker to quickly assembled the unedited movie/clips and then export it to 720p WMV files and then send the WMV files to VMS10 for editing.
Eugenia wrote on 12/1/2010, 12:40 PM
You lose a lot of quality this way, and editing WMV is not very stable either. If you're taking the time to re-encode, then at least use a codec that's meant to do intermediate work: cineform, Avid DNxHD, or Matrox AVI mpeg2.
aquaholik wrote on 12/1/2010, 1:23 PM
Thanks for the tip Eugenia. That is primary a fishing video camera and I have not closely compared the final WMV output to the original .mov clips.
bartman wrote on 12/2/2010, 10:27 AM
Does anyone have any suggestions for a NLE that can handle the PlaySport files? One that can manage to load more than 30 clips in the media bin before crashing?

Sony's best suggestion is to wait for a newer version, but I really have no intention of waiting for that to happen anytime soon. I will be going after them for a refund.


musicvid10 wrote on 12/2/2010, 10:35 AM
Oh, and what is your RAM preview render max set at?
Try setting it at 128MB and testing.

With 2G system RAM and 30 Quicktime files, I wouldn't be so quick to rule out memory IIWY
bartman wrote on 12/2/2010, 11:08 AM
If It could manage more than 30 clips in the media bin I could see other rendering settings making a difference, but since it crashes before anything even goes onto the timeline it has never really got to rendering anything. Basically it has been 90 bucks and two weeks spent and nothing edited. I'm done with it.

The 30 clips limit seems to be an issue for a few people with no answer. When Sony support can't even offer any useful information it's not a good sign.

I'm interested in finding a suitable editor now that will work without spending two weeks researching a fix to even load the clips.

Great that VMS10 works for others, but VMS8 was also riddled with bugs that required work arounds for even saving a project and I thought by now it could work for me, but guess not.

musicvid10 wrote on 12/2/2010, 11:16 AM
OK, suit yourself.
Since you are seeking validation for a particular point of view, I'm not able to help you with that.
But good luck to you.
bartman wrote on 12/2/2010, 11:31 AM
If it weren't for an endless stream of problems starting with version 8 I may be more inclined to spend hours and hours to fix this product so it works for me, but I really don't have time.

It should be noted that I had also purchased a new computer at the time of version 8 specifically to run VMS so it's not like I was working with an old, under powered clunker. Even now my system well exceeds the minimum specs required of VMS10.

It's an issue between Kodak specs and VMS. I doubt it will ever be corrected.

Best case now is finding an editor that does work.

Sony support dropped the ball and the sale as a result. They need to rely less on non-paid forum members to supply support and actually supply support themselves.

Eugenia wrote on 12/2/2010, 12:24 PM
You can try the new Premiere Elements 9. I tried it when it came out and it was rather unstable in general, but they might have released a patch. PE9, just like VMS10, has h.264 speed ups.

Why don't you just use an intermediate codec btw? Learning a new NLE will take you more time rather than simply re-encoding to a VMS-friendly codec. Us with cameras that do h.264 before Vegas 10, that's how we got by.
bartman wrote on 12/2/2010, 12:43 PM
I have yet to find any conversion program that doesn't result in a quality downgrade on the converted file. Perhaps spending another 100 bucks or more on one may fix that, but I already wasted that on VMS and don't want to spend any more to fix it.

Eugenia wrote on 12/2/2010, 1:18 PM
I'm sorry, but your latest comment shows how you are not willing to actually try anything, but sit over here and whine to us all day. In my *first* reply to you I already gave you the solution for re-encoding to a format that's suitable for editing (h.264 is not in reality, what we have to day in any NLE is hacks). Quoting:

"I'd suggest the $100 Cineform NeoSCENE utility, but if you prefer to do the job for free, you can try Avid DNxHD, or Matrox mpeg2 AVI. All the sections after section 3 (including section 3) on this article is good for your case too: "

None of the these three, industrial-strength, Hollywood-used, codecs is losing quality. They are intermediate codecs, and their job is to not lose quality, and to edit faster/easier/stabler than delivery codecs (like h.264 is). So why the heck didn't you try the tutorial? (hint: for your case, since you want a free 1080/30p solution, the Matrox AVI is the best choice for you). Why do you still have to come back to us and shoot down every one of our suggestions without trying them at all?!? Do you know how frustrating this is for us too, who are just trying to help out? 20 comments so far on this thread, for something that its solution is so simple. (I bet you still haven't even tried Vegas Pro trial, which takes 10 minutes to do so, just to at least get an ease of mind for a future Platinum version).

You just want what you want, and you want it now -- as of magic, no less.

News flash: no matter if someone donates you CS5, or FCP, or Vegas Pro, you will still not be happy. Because none of these apps are bug-free. Absolutely none. There are huge costs around fixing every bug possible, and sometimes that's not even possible, even if you take all the time in the world (and essentially killing your product), because you might stumble onto CPU, or compiler, or Windows, or third party codec bugs instead of your own. That's how consumer software is, buddy. You will have to run around it. Take it or leave it.

If you don't like it, sell your PC and your camera, buy a film camera and use your garage as a film studio. Good luck.
aquaholik wrote on 12/2/2010, 3:10 PM
Bartman, if you could invest some time, you will find that VMS 10 is probably the best $100 NLE editing software. If we all shot in one format, then yes it should work right out of the box. There are so many codecs and implementations by software and hardware companies that expecting an NLE software to work with all of them is unrealistic, no matter what is printed on the box. Whatever you do, don't try Premiere Elements 8. If you think VMS 10 is buggy, wait until you try Premiere Elements 8.

Eugene, I am going to try the above free intermediate codecs above.

musicvid, please don't stop posting. Without you guys help, VMS 10 would not be as rock solid for me when working with 1080i AVCHD clips. Sure it takes a lot of tweaking and some work around. But for $100 and my previous experience with Premiere Elements, I will take VMS 10 any day.
bartman wrote on 12/2/2010, 5:17 PM
Aquaholik - it's because I have this crazy idea that a product aimed at the CONSUMER level should work with CONSUMER level cameras. Not like Kodak has only been around a couple years.

I don't feel I should need to spend additional time sorting out transcoding and probably having to spend more money for a program that may work at a decent speed so I can use the program. It's like buying a car then having to go somewhere else to buy an ignition key to start it.

And when the best that Sony "support" can offer on the problem of no more than 30 clips in the media bin is wait for the next version to possibly correct the problem... well, that pretty much is the last straw. I know software can have bugs but that's all it's been since I first purchased version 8. It is unacceptable plain and simple.

musicvid10 wrote on 12/2/2010, 5:42 PM
bartman, I wasn't going to reply again after it became apparent you were going to ignore every piece of advice that was offered here. However, there is something you really should know.

Eugenia and I haven't exactly been the best of friends here, in fact our disagreements have become quite uncomfortable for other forum members at times. However, neither of us has regressed to the level of personal filth shown in your last response to her. If the content remains, it will be reported as abuse. That's a promise and fair notice.

And the fact that aquaholik, who started out agreeing with you, is now offering you an alternative point of view, should suggest that you can make different choices in your rhetoric; that is if you actually want any help here, which is something I now seriously doubt.

In the meantime, this should make for some informative reading:
bartman wrote on 12/2/2010, 6:44 PM
I really couldn't care less what you do musicvid. That was very mild compared to what I originally wrote. If that's all it take to get your panties in a knot you must live in a fantasy world.

I expect no answers here. Almost everyone is too quick to defend this consumer software that appears to be meant for only pro level cameras. We consumers want software that works out of the box without having to spend hours just making it work first.