Hello Gary,

" . . if you give us a more specific example" . .how more specific do you want?

"What you've written so far seems like a multi-cam edit" . .yes exactly .. and yes I wish for you to succeed in your sales too! - You succeed and then you will improve your product and I'll benefit . . I'll even BETA it for you too! - When I saw the multicam wiz AND as a one-camera company, I immediately saw and recognised the advantages of having my main footage on track MAIN FOOTAGE and having CUTAWAY footage on a CUTAWAY track .. I even played with this concept for some time - Edward knows this .. I nearly drove him bonkers with my queries - hah!

But, call me "simple" but I feel and still do that Multicam - IMHO - does not have that immediacy and one off and review and changeability that is needed when I'm sensitively altering a L&J edit - yeah? I really like and appreciate Multicam Wiz - but maybe there is a simpler script or series of scripts that can be called into play to make this task simpler AND a pleasure - 'cos at the moment it aint!

My way of thinking there are 4 Point envelope scripts, there are scripts that respond to markers .. . my way of thinking is to put up 2 markers - the IN and the OUT of the L&J, and tell the script to go fetch the other bit of either video OR video and audio WITH an option to reduce the audio and plop it into the M&M gap . .yeah?

Look, do you want to do this off forum? You want to inform Edward?

Over to you Gary <wink> <wink>,

Best regards,

Grazie

Grazie,

Your problem intrigued me, so I just did some experimenting and found a behavior in Vegas that lets you do part of what you want to do VERY easily. It has to do with what happens when two audio events overlap COMPLETELY on the same track.

Here’s the behavior: If you move two audio events so they overlap completely, the audio that was "there first" completely blocks out the audio "underneath." They don’t mix.

Thus, to do an edit like you describe, I put a sample AVI event on the timeline. I split the event where I wanted to start the edit, and then split the event where I wanted to end the edit. This split both the audio and video, of course. I then deleted the video of the "new" event that was created in the middle, and moved either the left or the right event until the video exactly touched. This gave me uninterrupted audio that continued "under" the new video, up to the point of the second cut. I didn’t have to group/ungroup, or slip-trim either the audio or video for either side of the cut.

While this obviously isn't a generalized solution to your interesting problem (it only works for one simple type of L cut), it may perhaps stimulate your thinking on how to get what you want with the fewest keystrokes, least amount of thinking, and fewest mistakes, which is my definition of what makes a piece of video editing software either useful, or just another piece of software flotsam.

Thank you - Grazie

Thank you JM - Grazie

J and L cuts should just be easier. You're right, Grazie, they're really common cuts.

For those who are having trouble visuallizing it, imagine a shot with audio. The shot cuts or disolves to something else while the audio continues.

There are three things related to this in Vegas that probably could be worked on by the Madison folks:

1-A key modifier, as Gary described above, that turns off event grouping as long as you hold it down. Use this to quickly change the length of one element of an A/V pair.

2-More sophisticated event grouping. Audio and video from the same media file should default to a "Strong" grouping while other user defined groups should default to "Weak" groups. Ungrouping a bunch of grouped events shouldn't affect Strong groups. Ungrouping a Strong group should require that you confirm the action.

3-Lockability-this probably needs to be a dialog for event properties that allows you to separately lock the event length, position, effects, pan/crop, etc. All events that are members of a Strong group get included in the lock settings. Ideally, you would open an event's properties dialog with Alt+Enter just like any file on the desktop or in explorer. (Locking could also trigger a background prerender but that gets you closer to nested sequences-which Vegas seems to be avoiding)

Rob Mack

1-A key modifier, as Gary described above, that turns off event grouping as long as you hold it down. Use this to quickly change the length of one element of an A/V pair.

How about a key modifier that, while the key is held, would let me drag the edge of either the video or audio in order to trim it, without the related audio or video also being trimmed? The state of the grouping would be unaffected. Also, the state of the ripple would be ignored (i.e., ripple would be turned off while the key is held).

I am really interested in this thread. To me, enhancing Vegas to make editing faster, less confusing, less error prone, and more intuitive should be the top priority for Sony/SoFo engineering. My biggest disappointment in V5 was the lack of any enhancements or improvements in this area. If you cut video for a living, workflow is EVERYTHING; everything else (like effects) should come second on the development priority list. For EACH new release, the development team should sit down and as their FIRST priority, decide how they can substantially and significantly improve workflow.

Rob & JM - now you're on a roll! This IS exactly my point.

JM, my problem? I think it is shared . . . L&J cuts are one of the nicest and well, sexiest edits to make. Done well they are simply staggering. They can fundamentally raise the quality and tenure of a piece by a factor of 10 . . I also thing that if we/Sony and others can grasp this nettle - making Vegas sit up - we could have an editing platform that truly could sweep all before it . . I kid you not!

Editing not only should be part of the workflow system it SHOULD be easy and a pleasure to do. When something is easy to accomplish that is when the creativity can flow .. . OK we need to keep the interest of Vegas engineers - not only to just make things more complex - BUT, in the last resort, things should be well .. how do I say this ? .. TRANSPARENT !

I want to be able to assign neat function to the Right Click drop down menu of the mouse. I want to be able to Scrub the t/l and HEAR the audio as well as see the Video - that after all is the real World.

I love this s/w .. I sometimes have to pinch myself to think where I was 2 years ago and recognise where I've got to now. This is a very short time. Yes I've had to learn loads in a short time .. I've done a few projects which have hit home . . But now I film KNOWING what I can do when I get in front of Vegas. I know I can give the client "their" style. Vegas has given THIS to me.

I've just done a Grazie type article about it . . I know Sony is eager to hear and if they can act on suggestions too! I'm making this plea so that we can all gain from hearing ALL our feedback.

So, my "problem"? .. Well actually no. . . we have to work even harder with the engineers - I don't know how, I don't where - but I do know I wish, like you JM and Rob, we could get closer to them. The product suggestion feedback email is one way .. . I'm looking for something more "organic" and slippy .. and darn it HUMAN!

The time investment I'm making in this great s/w, on its own, makes me want to come up with and respond to ideas as to how things could be .. .

Sorry Guys and Gals if you've read this far and thought "What IS this chap on!?!" . ..

Bottom line? I don't want more complexity . . . I want more "slipperiness" - hey, you know what i mean . . ;-)

Best regards,

Grazie

Perhaps before we start looking for the more 'nice to haves' we should be asking for a fix to a fairly basic issue: Proper handling of A/V sync.
Even (shudder) Windoz Movie Maker will not let this happen, come to think of it I know of no other NLE that treat this issue so trivially. Sure Vegas has a whole host of wonderful tools, I don't know if Joe Average Viewer usually notices the difference they make or not but they seem to notice audio 12 frames out of sync every time.

I totally agree. Vegas 5.5 or 6 needs more attention to editing basics. Adding new compositing features was fine but I felt that the basics were ignored. I can overlook it-this release came after Sony's purchase. I imagine there was a bit of disorder and time lost in Madison.

The key modifier you describe was what I meant. The ripple part of it I didn't consider. Good idea.

Rob Mack

Yeah, something a little better than "Intuitive".

On the interacting with Madison front, some here do just that. But it would be great if they could do something like Vast. Take a design tour and have some face to face time with users in different regions. Sort of a roving usability study.

One other thing I've fantasized about is making web based demos of ideas. Clickable pictures of vegas with pet features mocked up in them to demo ideas. I just haven't had the time and he weather is so nice lately...

Rob Mack

I know you've been over this a million times but maybe you can provide a link to a good thread on the sync topic? I'd like to read it again.

Rob Mack

er . .any more takers on the "L&J" thingie?

.. Sony been quiet of late. . don't yah think?

I agree that audio/video sync behavior is one of the weak spots in Vegas. However, after playing with the customizable keyboard shortcuts, I'm not beating my head on the desktop in frustration QUITE so much.

Try remapping your keyboard as follows:
1. Remap the "U" key so it engages "ignore event grouping;" and "Ctrl-Shift-U" engages "ungroup."

2. Remap the "F" key so it engages "ripple all tracks," and "Ctrl-Shift-F" engages "ripple affected tracks."

3. Remap the "Delete" key so that it "deletes all in group"

4. Now swear by your copy of Walter Murch, to NEVER, NEVER use the toolbar for "Auto Ripple" or "Ignore Event Grouping" (you know you'll just forget to turn them off, wreaking untold havoc on your timeline!). Also swear that you will NEVER NEVER use Grouping for anything other than Audio/Video Sync. (I'm trying to use the selection tools, Tsunami and regions, rather than Grouping for picking up and moving several related events)

So, with this set-up, if I want to do a J- or an L- cut, I hit the "U" key, make the edit, and hit the "U" key again. If I want to delete a linked audio/video pair, I select one, and hit delete, and both parts vanish. If I want to close the gap I just created, I hit "F" and everything ripples appropriately.

This may not work for you, but I'm trying to make the simple, single-finger keystrokes match the commands I use most often. Many of the default Vegas shortcuts are exactly opposite, where what I need to do most often is the most difficult contortion of three-fingers (especially tough if you have one hand on the mouse).

BS! You are truly amazing ! .. Ah c'mon guys and gals give him a round of applause! - Now all I've gotta do is truly understand what you said .. Brian, this is remarkable, this may ALSO get Sony to think of a sexy way to have this happen.

Best regards,

Grazie

.. I'll need a dark room to lie down in . . shhhh... G is sleeping .. .

Aw, shucks, sir. T'weren't nuthin'

Grazie, go to Options|Preferences|Keyboard in V5 and you can reassign any keyboard button to almost any function you like. Best of all, there's a button to "restore defaults" if you get too crazy.

Let me know if I can explain anything more clearly.

Yep, That was super!

Rob