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MUTTLEY wrote on 7/6/2009, 4:15 PM
Peter, I respectfully disagree with the theory that just because someone posts their work here in an effort to share with other Vegas users what they've done in Vegas that it should be assumed they are looking for criticism. And I've explicitly said that's not what I'm looking for so to suggest or imply that people should force their opinions anyway, well, okay man.

That said I'll readily concede that my original post might have been confusing to some if they just skimmed it over. I was asking for comments on my site because a few good words could go a long way with someone visiting my site and thinking of hiring me. If I was unclear I apologize, I hope I've cleared that up.

I don't want to be redundant but I feel the need to say this again, I think posting negative feedback and criticizing others work when not asked for is just rude and at times borderline arrogant. Not in call cases and I'll grant that in this thread in particular my first post may have lead to some of the comments I received. I hope I've clarified. I've said that twenty different ways already. That's not something that I think just applies to me, I feel that that is just common decency, the word I've used before is etiquette. To say that posting here is tantamount to eliciting criticism is simply misguided imho.

Be that as it may, if some insist on giving negative feedback I guess do whatcha gotta do. It ain't that I can't take it, it's pointless and unwelcome.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do." - Dale Carnegie

- Ray
Underground Planet

P.S. And no William, none of what you suggested was even remotely an option but I do so hope you feel better having said it. But I do appreciate the kind words that were in your post, they did not go unnoticed.

P.S.S. History of the World: Part I is on TV Land right now, had another great quote that just seemed to wonderfully apropos to not add: " And of course, with the birth of the artist came the inevitable afterbirth... the critic." ... enjoy the thread, I've said all I can say. =)
goshep wrote on 7/6/2009, 4:54 PM
"Like it or not, he got into bed with the mixer when he shot this video and they did have a baby."

Ray, you treasonous tramp! :D

ushere wrote on 7/6/2009, 5:05 PM
i'm a bit lost with this thread......

imho, i'm very happy that people feel they can post their work here, and that others feel equally free to offer their opinion of it - whether good, bad, or indifferent.

there would be little point to exhibiting anything in any public forum and expecting nothing but praise. the whole point of putting your work before the public lies in the hope of it (the public) relating to it, liking it, and praising it. if you don't what brickbats and / or criticism, you shouldn't exhibit it.

this is not aimed at muttley necessarily, but at ANYONE posting anywhere.....

leslie
Tim L wrote on 7/6/2009, 6:17 PM
I agree that the implicit "norm" when posting a video on a video-editing forum is that the thread is wide open for comments and criticisms of the video. That's the typical culture of a forum like this.

Ray, if you don't want anybody to criticize your work and you only are looking for compliments, you need to be really clear about that when posting. Right in your first post you should make clear that you don't want any negative comments or suggestions on what you could have done differently -- you just want to share your work. And I think that's a legitimate thing to do, and well within your rights, but its your responsibility to make that clear.

This thread is almost an exact replay of a similar one from earlier this year: http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?Forum=4&MessageID=641262
MUTTLEY wrote on 7/6/2009, 6:55 PM
I am aware Tim, trust me I recall! I should have just copied and pasted and others could have done the same with their responses, saved us all a whole lotta typing. =)

- Ray
Underground Planet
wm_b wrote on 7/8/2009, 12:40 PM
Ray,

I can see from this thread and the one linked above that I was trying to have (or even force) an unwanted discussion. I misunderstood the first post on some level, that's all. No grudges, hidden agendas or intents. I will only make on more suggestion and that is to be VERY clear about what you would prefer to discuss and NOT to discuss when you start a thread. I can respect wanting to filter signal from noise.

This Sony website is somewhere between a user support forum and a social netorking site. I don't know if it's appropriate for them to have "works" forum or something that is just for sharing a link to completed work (meaning: done, finé, fully baked, well out of the oven, no more do-overs). I don't know what would be the best way to allow posts to be seen in a high traffic area (general discussion areas always seem more populated) but still be understood as "critique/discussion free".

You don't know me and I don't know you but our mutual interests are similar enough that we are likely to be interesting to one another. I am not some internet brute going around trolling to get a rise or make myself feel better at your expence.

Peace,
Wm.
MUTTLEY wrote on 7/8/2009, 5:08 PM
No worries William, honestly even when I do get annoyed (not that that's anyone's fault but my own) I don't hold grudges easily and usually forget that I was ever even bothered in the first place. I don't doubt that I over reacted. I get very attached to my work and there are few things that suck more, especially once its all its done and out the door, than to be proud of something and want to share it only to have people knock it down. Those of the best intentions of wanting to help out usually seem to understand where Im at with this, others, not so much. But by the replies in this thread and the other thread that was pointed to earlier where this has happened before it appears as though many don't agree with my personal philosophy on the matter (that you don't give criticism unless its asked for) and want to insist on doing so regardless. Beyond that people get in a huff that I would even suggest such a thing. It's crazy to me that people can't seem to fathom the concept of if you cant say something nice ...

Look, I don't expect everyone to like my work and I know there are a whole lot of people out there who do it a million times better than I could ever dream of, I am aware, ACUTELY aware. No one here ever needs to remind me. Flaws and all I still love doing what I do and try as best I can to make every vid I do a little bit better than the last, that's all I can hope for. I've always been happy to answer questions, I don't even mind explaining my choices, but I don't need to be told whats wrong and I don't want to have to defend myself, not here anyway. Some people think my stuffs crap, thats cool, I should or shouldn't have used a jib, my cuts are to fast, the location was wrong, there's to many whip pans, the musician should have been dressed in period clothing ... *sigh* ... no guys, it shouldn't have been all that because that's not what I wanted. I wanted those things, you disliking them is preference. The video's are how I wanted it to be and I stand behind them. People hire me because they like MY work, they're not hiring me to make things the way you would have. Not that yours wouldn't have been awesome! Heck yours might have been a thousand times better than mine! Fair enough, every chance in the world it might have been ... but it wasn't yours.

Okay, I've gone on enough. Suffice to say no hard feelings, hatchet buried, and sorry if I over reacted or if some don't understand where I'm coming from. It is what it is but William appreciate your reply.

- Ray
Underground Planet


Jay Gladwell wrote on 7/9/2009, 8:23 AM

"People hire me because they like MY work, they're not hiring me to make things the way you would have."

At the risk of being accused of kicking a dead horse or fanning the flames (choose whichever you think fits best), I think that's a valid observation.

As artists, I think it's very important that we learn to distinguish between "poorly done" and "my way." In my classes I use the example of Scorsese's Raging Bull. I hate that movie. There's nothing about it I like. Now, having said that, I also recognize that it is a "well made" movie. I have, after much hard work, come to understand the difference between my personal preferences and quality work. Just because I don't like it, that doesn't mean it a poorly made. Who am I to second guess the likes of Martin Scorsese? We just have different tastes, that's all there is to it.

If we were to give a script to ten different filmmakers, we'd more than likely get ten different films. So which one would be "the right" one?


tumbleweed7 wrote on 7/9/2009, 10:34 AM

The "one" I like, is the right one.... of course.. : )