Zippy,

First of all thanks for answering this way at the question posted.
Secondly, could you describe the difference with premiere's Trimmer? Most of us don't have Premiere I guess, and I wonder what makes their trimmer so good?

mark

Some more experienced users think any trimmer regardless who's, is like training wheels on your kid's bike. Its totally superfluous. Of course its just a matter of choice, use what you're comfortable with. I never have or will use it. To me it just slows you down, but that's just me. One of the strengths of Vegas is how flexable it is. So with most things you really can do it your way.

I'd go along with BillyBoy,
I've tried using the trimmer in Premiere and found it a thoroughly confusing concept and when I went over to VV pretty much ignored it as well.

But that is me. I can see a very definate use for it but it really depends on your workflow. I'd imagine if you were cutting serious drama where what went in and what was out and how long each clip was going to be then it would be one of the most useful tools.

My workflow is totally different, but it rarely involves anything thats planned so I tend to just dump everything onto the timeline and hack away at it.

I dig the Trimmer. I do a lot of audio sync'ing from mutliple, one camera setups -- where I have a musician play the same piece of music repeatedly, changing the camera location between takes, and sync the chord transitions in post. The Trimmer lets me mark and name regions (in this case, I name them in numbered movements of music), and then search through them in the Media Pool, dragging and dropping as I like to the timeline.

It would be nice if Zippy would fill us in on the things that make the Prem Pro Trimmer so uber-functional -- I think it can only help Vegas grow if the coders at Sony know what users would like. Then again, since most of Zippy's posts are as crass as they are...

- jim

To be sure, some people get more use out of the trimmer than others.

BB, I was surprised that you didn't say "I don't use the trimmer and I don't think the Vegas team should waste their time on this fluff!"

I'm relieved.

Here's what I see in M100 that gives the trimmer lots of life:
--you can mark out a region in the trimmer and then drag the range into a bin (or onto the timeline). This gives you a reusable range that you can name in the bin. If you want to drag the edges out again on the timeline you can.
--you can mark out a range and apply an effect, then put that range into a bin for reuse. This would be useful for lots of effects but time stretching comes to mind. M100 also uses this to make freeze frames but Vegas has other ways to skin that cat.

This sort of reusability of ranges by putting them into bins would be useful if, you were:

---Making instructional videos for the Dept. of Redundancy Dept.
---Cutting an episode of Blue's Clues or Teletubbies
---Etc., Etc., Etc.

I think having this sort of functionality in the trimmer would make it pretty compelling.

Rob Mack

You really have to use the Adobe Premiere Pro trimmer first hand to understand what I'm refering to. Plus this is probably a lousy explanation of it anyway.

But there are many things to like about it. Seperate "in" and "out" preview windows. Jog "In", Jog "in" and "out", and Jog "out" wheels. (3 wheels place nicely in front of you that dynamically change the "in" and "out" video previews).

User definable "out point shift". Incremental trim adjustments by one frame or multiple frames.

Multiple ways to trim. Drag the jog wheels, drag the timecodes, or drag the actual picture in the preview windows.

Zoom in and out on each clips individual timeline (within the trimmer window).

"Next" and "previous" edit point buttons as well as "loop". Safe margins on and off accessible in the trimmer window.

Bottomline is it is quick, easy (and easily understood by many people who struggle with the concept of trimming or getting the "in" and "out" frames just right), plus every control you need to do trimming is right in front of you.

I guess I am with the people who don't need the trimmer, I've been using Vegas since Version 2 and I have yet to use the trimmer for anything except trying out Zippy's problem yesterday, which turned out to be a false bug.

Let's say you shoot an interview.. and you have some music videos from that artist that you want to cut with the interview..

Normally I would watch the interview before editing, so I know where to find the parts I want to use, write down the timecodes I want.

But I don't have the oppertunity to do this, so I load the interview in the Trimmer, so I can mark the good parts I need. Same for the music videos..

I'd rather make selections in the trimmer so I can scroll through it as much as I want, and make markers for the parts I want than adjusting clips in the timeline all the time with the chance of messing the timeline up and not remembering where the good part was..


mark

I don't use the trimmer either, but I'm still waiting for someone to answer the original question. It's been blatently avoided.
Peter said that (as I understand it) he had a one-hour clip. In that one-hour clip there is a three-second segment that he can click right to. How would we, who don't use the Trimmer, do that?
I can only think of one way and that's to watch the clip and note where that sequece is (which he did, clearly, so no difference so far). Now, he (using the trimmer) is able to mark that region and forget it until he wants to use it, right?? We (not using the trimmer) would have to, A: write down the time code and lable it and keep that handy for future reference, or B: put the clip on the timeline and render out that area and make it a new clip.
I consider myself a newbie, having only cut 5 "real" projects on it over a 2-3 month period. So I love questions like this, how would you... I would love to know how seasoned users would. -mjr

You can do all of the above from the timeline. No, I don't consider the Vegas trimmer fluff like some other things that are. BUT... those in the forum long enough remember when the trimmer was taken out. Original version 3? Apparently SoFo thought it was unneeded as well. Actually it still was there but hidden and you had to know the overide preference trick to get it back. Some howled and they put it back as a menu choice. Like I said, its how you do things.

Like Farss said, I too feel using the trimmer is more of a hindrance and can stifle one's natural creativity by interfering with the more natural work flow you can get from just working off the main timeline.

When I'm editing I don't have any preconceived ideas of exactly how a scene will end up looking or exactly where it will fit it or if I'll delete it, edit it, whatever. If I stop and drop to the trimmer and ponder should I use take X or Y or Z, how long should N be, do I snip here or there I find myself getting overly pickly... or my mind starts to drift and I lose the spontaneity.

Do you think the genius of Leonardo Da Vinci in painting something like the Mona Lisa came from him first mapping out every brush stroke? Hell no, he put brush to canvas and just started painting. If he didn't like the result, he painted over what he originally did.

Good editing isn't and shouldn't be some mechanical process where you pick, this, then this, then something else. I know some do that. Guess what, it can sometimes SHOW that's what you've done. The result being a stiff, unnatural overly tweaked blah video.

Well, maybe I can answer my own question (and perhaps Peter's).
I don't capture one-hour clips. I batch capture - always. I choose only the best takes (and maybe the second best take) and only put those on the timeline. So that's why I've never had the same issue as Peter mentioned.
But I do strongly disagree with BB about how the Mona Lisa was painted and that the Trimmer creates "mechanical" results. Whether you cut in the trimmer or on the time-line, the result is the same as far as I know. It's the artist, not so much the tools. You can have just as much finese either way. Most "Big-Time" directors/editors I've heard about use a StoryBoard. That's just a rough cut. Then the beauty comes in when it's all dropped on the timeline and made to flow. I can't think how the trimmer would make that experience not work. For me, it's an extra step, but not going to hurt the work.
hm... As is said above (by BB and all), whatever works for your flow. -mjr

The trouble with 'how would you...' questions is the answer depends on the TYPE of project. You don't edit an interview where you may have multiple takes of some talking head answering the same questions as you would a home video and you don't edit a home video the same as you would if you were tweaking something you downloaded off the Internet or tapped off your TV, etc..

The best way to get a very specific answer is ASK a very specific question like this:

How do I edit a interview with multiple takes or what is a good way to edit a home video.

Most people only ask 'what is the best way to edit a video'

That's too open ended.

BB,
I think you are absolutely right about the creativity-level going down in some projects. But I do think it depends a lot on the project.
I used to edit tape (2 machines) without ever knowing exactly what I was going to do. I made a new in-point when I needed one, if by watching the video I thought it was getting bored RIGHT at that frame, and switching tapes all the time to find the next exciting part to come.
In my example of an interview with Britney Spears mixed with 2 of her music vids you can also do that. Of course you go placing one of her answers at the end of the project because in the editing fase it seems more creative or funny or whatever. And of course you create things while you're doing the edit.
But using the trimmer doesn't prevent that from happening. I would say that having the interview in the trimmer window, with marker on the good parts even HELPS you being more creative, because when you are moving things around in the timeline, you can think "how about we had some funny movement of Britney right here, THAT would be great creative thing that comes to my mind!!" - how easy is it to just go into trimmer and get that part, put it on the timeline and see if it works right away? How can that make you less creative?

Besides that, there are also a lot of disciplines that need to be scripted, writen down and edited like it's on paper. Like news-items, drama, etc.. I don't see nothing wrong with that. It's easier to write a script about strange weird things happening in a dreamy, psychedelic world (oh I'm sooartistic and creative) than writing a story with a clear beginning, middle and ending that everybody likes and understands. Just like in music. A good pop song is hard to write (and I tried ;) )

And most of the time even those written-down projects will be changed in the editing fase at the last time because someone gets a great idea.

Mark

---------- and as I was typing we all seemed to agree anyway ;) ---------

LOL! Editing a big budget Hollywood movie is vastly different than the typical video project forum members tackle. First, almost all of the big budget movies are filmed totally out of sequence and there is ALWAYS multiple takes and miles and miles of film to edit. Sure they map out things first and use a story board. Wouldn't you if you were responsible for a 100 million dollar budget? Blowing a scene in some big budget movie can cost a huge amount of money and even ruin the final result. Rarely are you going to have that kind of problem doing a wedding video, a home vid, a demo tape, commerical, elborate slideshow or documentary. Typical things forum members do.

"...typical things forums members do..." --- exactly!

So we all agree that it depends on what you are doing.
Although mjr's example about big films and big budgets can also apply to tv-specials, national tv-commercials and shows etc.. things that some forum members are doing..

grtz

Most of my work is editing interviews and news pieces for network broadcast, and I use a pretty standard timeline grid to build these pieces, so it's easier for me to use the trimmer to pull out the soundbites and plug them in. Plus I'm generally working from the reporter's script which lists timecode references that I can't get if the media is in the timeline.

So the trimmer is pretty integral to my workflow.

Come on guys, lets not get into 'mine is bigger than yours' type of comments. WHY I said TYPICAL users. I have no more idea who's doing what than anyone else does unless they come out and say I'm doing "X". For all we know Steven Spielberg is a closet Vegas user and I have heard Billy Gates uses a Mac. ROTFLMAO!

>>>Let's say you shoot an interview.. and you have some music videos from that artist that you want to cut with the interview..<<<

I do this exact thing all the time. I also use Premiere to edit this with, but that is an aside. I have said this before in the whole "Who uses the trimmer" thing - First thing I do is watch the tape and make a shot log. Than, in Premiere, I only capture the selects. In a sense I have pre-edited.

I would do the exact same thing for cutting a feature. I would first go through the AC's notes, the Script suervisors notes and the directors notes. I would log all the tapes and than capture selects.

Yeah yeah - "But hard drvies are cheap. Tape is cheap. Just capture/print everything." We editors are like god right? "Kill them all and let God sort them out" comes to mind here. I think if you have an assistant editor that is their job - to log everything and mark everything. If you are editing by yourself than you can log it just as easy. But why litter up your hard drive with hours upon hours of material you will never use? I seem the read this as people use the trimmer because they were too lazy to log the tape to start off with.

You're right filmy. I think logging before editing is the way for this kind of project. But when you're not able to log the trimmer comes in handy... although you could log in the camera.
But imagine there's no script. Just some footage and a vague idea of what it's gonna be (wrong way of shooting in the first place if you ask me, but it happens).. Then, the trimmer could be a useful way of logging, using markers etc. That's what I think..

>>> Then, the trimmer could be a useful way of logging, using markers etc.<<<

I'm not saying the trimmer is usless, it isn't. But I think all tapes should be logged first *before* they are captured. In the case of a documentary it would be even more advisable to log everything before hand. If you have no knowledge of anything about the project and you get 30 hours of material put in your lap to edit you will be in for a long edit no matter what but I have read posts where people put in a tape and hit record and go away for an hour, than come back an put in another tape and repeat and so on. After that they still may not have any sort of idea what is on the tapes or how they will edit, so they now have to sit and watch all the tapes again to log them.

Interviews are another thing. You never really know what a person will say before hand so you will have footage to go through to find what you are looking for. If I was editing for 30 second sound bites I wouldn't really want to capture an hour tape for 30 seconds. I would rather log it first and than pull out only the relevant item for the soundbite. I mean face it - GW comes out with some winner like "We have no evidence that Iraq had any connection to September 11" and everyone suddenly forgets about anything else that was said but somewhere some assistant editor has hopefully sat through every tape of that day and logged every "quote" GW made for future referance. And even than - Ten 30 second sound bites will take up a lot less room than an hours worth of footage will.

Plain and simple a GOOD TRIMMER will help/allow you to CUT ON THE ACTION a lot easier and more precisely which will help projects appear seemless and more polished!

Someone said it further up in this thread... I'll paraphase it a little differently; Its more the craftsman than the tool he uses. That's true in many fields. Meaning a good craftsman can get better results from a cheap tool than a beginner can from an expensive tool.

As I've said many times in many threads, Vegas is great NLE, because you can do your thing, YOUR way. Think the trimmer is great? Fine, use it. Think it isn't, that's fine too.

Zippy, as you've proved countless times already... you don't have a clue what you're talking about. Maybe YOU have trouble using Vegas, rather obvious reading your constant rants. Don't assume others have the troubles you do. In fact the more you reveal about yourself the more obvious it becomes you don't know how to use Vegas beyond the more basic level as you've also demonstrated you don't want to learn either, you just want to rant about "bugs" real and imagined.