Did you try Sonar ?
It should meet all your requirements.
And btw, multicard Deltas suck... even with their very latests drivers the synchronization between the cards is not perfect.
For multicards, I believe the best is to use then in WDM mode. In Sonar, the WDM latencies are usually as low as ASIO.

I would think that Sonar would be somewhat of a step sideways from Vegas. I'm sure there are some things Sonar does better than Vegas, but if you want a *PRO* software based DAW system then Nuendo 2 would be a good choice.

FWIW - I love the UI of Vegas and think that SF has done a great job in many areas. Unfortunately, they just haven't got Vegas to the point that it needs to be for serious audio work IMHO. I have been hanging on to Vegas for quite some time now but will probably end up switching to Nunedo as it is much more powerful and will actually use both processors in my duallie machine. The UAD-1 card seems to have been working almost flawlessly in Nuendo for a good while now and I believe you can send audio out to external devices and back much more easily than with Vegas among other things (manual punch-in, auto-input monitor, control surface support to name a few). Although at $1300 street price - it is much more pricey.

SonicErik is wrong.
I'm using multicard delta 1010's and the sync hasn't been an issue.
There are better cards of course, but I havn't seen a need to move yet.
They are working great - the least of my worries in DAW operation and getting work done.
There was a time when the maudio drivers were frustrating and questionable, but the main concerns have been addressed for a while now.

So serious:

I use V3c.
I get 16trks in and well over 24 trks out with my deltas (sync is fine).
Humble little home studio - producing BIG results.
Very lucky to have the design built-in with the recording rooms and eng room.

**I also suggest Nuendo and Sonar 2 as well to clients, but V3 is doing what I need done and I prefer the speed the UI offers (also read: I learned to work very well in it).
V4 - No need still, and I'm NOT liking the stance SF is taking as for patches and answering problem questions on the app. No need to move to it until all is peachy.

System:
(minimal to what can be had today btw)
P4 1.6a OC to 2.4 ghz (PCI\agp locked)
Epox 4BDA
PC2700 OC to 400mghz ram (small mem voltage adjust to 2.8v).
2 SCSI U320 drives (1 smaller OS\apps, 1 larger record to drive)
3 fast large IDE (Maxtors, 1 IBM)
2 delta 1010's latest .29 (or you can use Billybk's suggested ACID40 delta drivers)
Lite-on IDE burner (or use of SCSI Plextor burner).

Monitoring via mackie 16ch vlz xdr mixer, ooodles of use of waves\ultrafunk\db\timeworks\dspfx plugins if need be.

I have completed many CD's in my area with this setup. From multitrack to live performances, elec to avant guarde...it's a solid DAW designed for GETTING WORK DONE.
Soft-synth (mainly NI using ASIO) recording via 2 deltas with MME in V3

Pipe - the words "getting work done" is taken very serious in my use.
Are you getting lot's of clients each month and need to get to work? Or is this just another post in the mire of SF msg board posts posed just for kicks?

JoeD

PipeLine,

Although I mostly understand and appreciate your frustration, I am not sure you will ever find the nirvana you desire using any platform that pivots percariously on any conventional OS, Microsoft or otherwise. These OS's are virtually teetering under their own bulk as it is. They are already far bigger than they have to be even for their original intended purpose, nevermind the (often hastily) grafted in feature sets that have swelled it to the wobbly other worldly juggernauts we all know and hate in the audio industry. The bandaids don't work, and in my (humble) opinion will never work. It's a historical fact, though a sad one.

What is needed of course is a small compact OS designed from the ground up to serve the task specific needs and requirements of audio/video professionals...but who would support it? Well, you and I would but we can't author the apps to run under such an OS, right?

You make the statement a "bare minimum to compete". In all honesty, Pipeline, competition is such a relative thing. Competative with whom? I would not consider myself very competative if I were relying too heavily on *any* computer no matter the speed or components, the apps...

We have found that in a high pressure audio/video environment we have to be modular and task specific for the roles involved in the production and processing of any media. If catastrophe strikes one component in our chain we have a much better chance of saving the day than would be possible if the focal point of our operation hinged heavily on computers that in my experience, as is apparently yours as well, are the weakest subsystem in the whole network.

One of the best lessons I have gleened over the years is that folks view true professionals as the ones that have good snafu management protocalls in place so that even if disaster ensues their projects will be safe and sound, their sessions will carry on and things will be done on time, come hell or high water. This is a very tall order to fill, and one that I humbly suggest cannot be satisfied by trying to accomplish everything on a computer. I sooo wish this were not true.

I, and scores of other analog born and raised engineers looked to computers and the digital revolution in general with a certain amount of wide eyed youthful excitement only to discover that, on it's own, no technology is an island unto itself.

jesus christ.

A novel entitled: "A perfect world"

Countless others are getting work donewith the EVIL and DREADED MS OS, why can't you?

Joed

Were getting work done. Lots of clients. Doesnt matter, this is still far more of a pain in the ass than it should be. I have been nursing this type of setup since vegas has been out. Originally along with tape but now just PC exclusively.

This is a new world now

Bands SUCK. Thats just the truth, if you dont see that as the new reality then dont even try to pretend you are doing the same volume as work as we are. Bands SUCK now, worse than ever. Every parent tries to live thru their kids now. Only VERY rarely does someone over 25 record at my studio now.

The age has dropped

The skill has dropped

The quality and reliability of the instruments have dropped

Most of the time I need to pick up a kids guitar and show him how to play his own songs

Often I have to sing it for them as well and I am NOT a singer!

This is the reality at this moment

This reality calls for the ability for a LOT of tracks

A TON of takes

And worse of all, a boatload of autotune type stuff, and constant splitting/moving/crossfading of rhythm tracks. This last bit is what vegas excels at, and why we use it. The problem is those extra takes bog up vegas, and quickly

Every split, crossfade, and take ( LOTS OF TAKES, as autotune in graphical mode doesnt work so conveniently in Vegas, it needs to be done in soundforge) makes the system more buggy. This has to change

How about a "freeze edit" function?

How about an " archive track " function like cakewalk or sonar?

Im tired of this blaming the victim BS, and Im even more tired of having my credibility questioned. I can probably match or beat credits ( BIG and small ) with anyone on this board, ( go do some checking ) but dont make an issue of it. Even if I WERE just sitting at home with a soundblaster, I shouldnt have these troubles.

Stop blaming the victim and start looking for solutions

I think Kilroy might be right about the sad truth here regarding OS's

"Countless others are getting work donewith the EVIL and DREADED MS OS, why can't you?"

True enough statement, though evil is hardly a description I would apply to software of even the lowest ilk.

Work...good work at that, can be accomplished with the the most primitive of tools, something demonstrated everywhere, everyday, has been for centuries and will be for centuries more.

A good carpenter can take any hammer he lays his hand to and pound together a fine house...but a hammer is a very predictable tool, is it not? The *only* thing predictable about OS modules, the computers they run on, and the umpteen possible hardware/software variations one can expect to encounter, is that predictability is not part of the equation. Unpredictability is the one and only given, and that can be very frustrating to work around in a creative environment. Just when you want to drive a simple nail the freaking head flys off your hammer. The obvious solution...build a better hammer.

As far as credibility, Pipeline, true credit has to be given to anyone that can produce fine results with less than fine tools under less than fine circumstances. I would say that your credibilty is more than intact.

I'm definately not questioning any of your credibility, I'm just scratching my head trying to figure out the differences between request number 1 and 2?

"1. Have AT LEAST 24 tracks in and out simultaneously

2. Be able to record 24 tracks while playing back at least 24"

Is it just me? or does this seem redundant? redundant?

As a side note, I'm kind of wondering when ever do you record 24 simultaneous tracks, while playing back 24? I was thinking maybe in a transfer from one format to another, you could very well need to record 24 simultaneously, but not the playback. I've done quite a few live rock band sessions also, not once have I hit 24 tracks of recording at once, yet alone recording 24 while playing 24. I think I would look at them and say 48 tracks in one location of a song!? Let the song breath damn it!!! Some of my projects have easily reached 48 tracks, but not 48 tracks playing at the same time. Just wondering.

Red

Pipe...

I run 3 Delta 1010's in my system and up until the latest drivers YES I did have some problems, however:

With the new drivers and a little trick I posted earlier on "latency fix", I have not had ONE SINGLE PROBLEM.

I can run 24 tracks I/O If I choose - even simultaneously. I do not care to allow talent to do 50 takes... they may be paying for it, but it tries my patience.

I would choose VV4 over Sonar any day of the week. The only exception: MIDI. Since I do not do MIDI... VEGAS WINS HANDS DOWN.

I pesonally believe you should be flamed for what you are saying.. If you do not like Vegas, then move on... and don't worry about Vegas... it shouldn't be in your world.

If you like something else (or not) go to their forum and whine there all you want... If you cannot be CONSTRUCTIVE, then move on.

I do not have any high priced, high falutin', peice of PC; and mine works just fine with all the parameters (except the 50 takes/track) you have described.

It's just like the the old saying - "if you don't like it here, leave - we wont miss you.:

And, "Don't let the door hit you in the rear on the way out!"

The Voice

I don't think he ever put down Vegas in his original post, or others for that matter.
He's asking, what's it take (hardware wise) to be able to do this in Vegas?

Unless I'm the one reading his post wrong.

M

The Voice, I think you misunderstand if you were to go back in this forum, for any length of time, you would see the lengths I go through to extoll the virtues of Vegas and looking around any other forum, including this one, you would see just how much crap I have to take for defending it. All I want to know is if its even going to be possible ever to get the kind of performance that I'd like to have.

red:
#1 was for monitoring dreaming of the day we get auto input, I like to think positive, but number 2 is the important one

"As a side note, I'm kind of wondering when ever do you record 24 simultaneous tracks, while playing back 24?"

for this I am just trying to leave a little wiggle room. It seems in the PC game, murphy's law states " to get the performance you require, multiply the theoretical prediction of system performance and multiply by 2 or 3"
Something like that

" I think I would look at them and say 48 tracks in one location of a song!? Let the song breath damn it!!! Some of my projects have easily reached 48 tracks, but not 48 tracks playing at the same time. Just wondering."

this isnt so often in rock ( happeneing a lot more lately tho!) but in hip hop it isnt at all uncommon to have 48 or 72 tracks of just backing vocals going, in addition to whatever other tracks are running. Its one of those things some cRapper mustve read in a magazine about stacking BGV's and dizzammm wahboom dey we go!

or something like that

the number of takes is a lot more critical tho. At the talent level of most bands today, we need to NOT have extra takes slowing the mix down, seriously

by the way, are the multiple deltas all showing up , ALL inputs in ASIO mode? if so is there a way to bypass their converters and still get 24 I/O ?

Pipe,
I haven't run into your bog situation during recording sessions, although I've seen it under 1 heavy editing project I did. The reason I think, I haven't seen it while recording is because I practice good house keeping as I go along.

I've described to you time and time again, my method of achieving punch-ins within Vegas. Well, this also probably helps with having too many events causing your bog effect. As I've described, I have 1 track for recording and the track directly below it is the composite edited track, where when a take is good I drop it down into the composite track and move on to the next part. So once the performance gets completed all the way through, the "recording track" get's cleared and the composite track remains with minimal events left on it. Thus, all the unused events are no longer in the project. They are still available if for any chance I need to go back to them, because they're still in the media pool. It sounds to me, if you have clients doing fifty takes per track then you better learn a similar house keeping style.

<< It sounds to me, if you have clients doing fifty takes per track then you better learn a similar house keeping style.>>

Why?...it's Phoenix.
50 takes of sh%t is still sh%t.

(Just messing with ya Pipe, YOU aren't the problem)
JD

Yeah...let's get serious. I couldn't get SONAR to run more than 26-28 tracks without the 'audio engine' cutting out. It has some serious problems with bit-depth/dithering and the editing is THE WORST, bar none. IMO, there is no replacement for Vegas...too bad it don't have 'real' midi because there would be NO competition. SX/Nuendo is the closest to your requirements, IMO.

I need vegas for its quick and easy to pinpoint split,move and crossfade system. Hands down that is the thing holding me to vegas beyond anything else. The keystrokes , toolchanges and terminal-clicking needed in cubendo and sonar to do those functions would send me back to slip editing on tape

>>I need vegas for its quick and easy to pinpoint split,move and crossfade system. Hands down that is the thing holding me to vegas beyond anything else. <<

I agree. I would have moved to other apps for features that Vegas doesn't have but Vegas's ease of use and powerful editing keeps me hooked! I watched a friend of mine work in Logic awhile back and it just blew my mind. It seemed absolutely painful!! I can't imagine using anything that is so ridiculously complex! He saw me working with Vegas and experienced the proverbial jaw drop. (Happens every time to those who've been using the other "pro" stuff!) ;-D

drbam

Yes, I misunderstood, and DO apologize.

To answer your question, YES, they all show up with Delta 1010's. I have not yet had one problem - well, just two problems; with latency and the original setup of multiple cards.

M-Audio does not tell you how to sync the cards in their manual. So, that requires a call to them for help and a few days of non-intelligent talk... but if you choose to go that route - email me and I will walk you through it. ASIO works fine, once I found and resolved the latency problem I have one rock solid machine.

But, 50 takes?... in Phoenix...and I thought I wanted to come to your fine city... (just kidding, I still want to come there... it might be fun!).

Most of the time (crossed fingers) more than 5 takes and I am tired of fooling around with it... and want to move on.... but a bucks a buck...

Please accept my apologies. Again, if you need help setting up, I am at your disposal.

The Voice

no problem. Just to be clear, you are using three cards IN vegas IN ASIO mode? Are all 24 inputs showing up IN ASIO mode?

Yes! I have three Delta 1010's (24 I/O's), all show up in ASIO mode or any other mode (I have even used them in CEP, Nuendo, ProTools, etc. - all of which I use off and on).

The "trick" is to have them sync together - again, something which M-Audio fails to explain in their manual. Once sync is completed and using both the M-Audio and Vegas Interfaces to complete setup, it is a breeze. VV4c and the latest drivers from M-Audio have confronted any associated problem I had previously.

In fact, I am installing two Delta 1010's into an "Audio Workstation" at a military base I consult with. They have seen what I can do with my system and are adding "quality" audio into their A/V facility. The real plus is having a UI which is simple to learn for the military types on the base, and the fact that they create "real" AC-3 Surround Sound SOLD them on the audio system.

The Voice

There is a sonar 2 demo on cakewalk web site. Sonar 2 has crossfades and similar kind of pin point split (scissors tool). Why don't you give it a try ?
btw, the audio engine does not cut out at 26-28 tracks... it scales pretty well. The audio engine works in 32 bits so there are no issues of bit-depth/dithering.