Longform on Vegas?

Foghound wrote on 12/21/2004, 8:22 PM
Hi All,
What an interesting forum you have here!
I have been editing on my DPS Velocity for three years now but will soon be producing a documentary series on HDV. Most of my work will be in the field, so I need something that will work well on a laptop.
Some questions I would really like answered about Vegas before I make the leap of faith:
1) Will Vegas serve my purpose as a long-form edit platform? Particularly relating to HDV - I will have to do an offline in low res and then re-digitise at high res for the "online" finish.
2) If the answer is positive to Q1, is it possible to transfer a finished EDL from a laptop running Vegas to a PC based Vegas system? (I have been reading many of your postings about EDLs and timecode, but this particular question has never been addressed.)
3)How does the Vegas timeline perform when stretched to 1 hour with numerous cuts?
4) What would be the minimum laptop specs required to effectively run Vegas while editing HDV content? Any particular manufacturers producing a laptop ideal for this use? Good value?
5) Being used to the "real time" benefits of Velocity, how really "real time" is Vegas. ie: If I was outputting a 1 hour documentary to tape, how long would it take (minimal special effects)?
6) What are the archiving capabilities of Vegas like? ie: If I was to complete a program and archive the timeline/EDL, how easy would it be for me to re-load the EDL and re-capture the original video?
7) Why should I buy Vegas and not Avid for this type of programming?
I have noted that your forum is quite outspoken and appears pretty honest. I would appreciate that outspoken honesty in whatever replies I might get.
Thank you for the time and effort in advance.
Bruce

So many questions...so little time.

Comments

Spot|DSE wrote on 12/21/2004, 9:13 PM
1) Will Vegas serve my purpose as a long-form edit platform? Particularly relating to HDV - I will have to do an offline in low res and then re-digitise at high res for the "online" finish.
Yes, Vegas is excellent at that. So far, the longest form HDV project I've done is 48 minutes. I'll be showing that piece at Sundance Film Festival next month. (Not in the festival, but as part of the Sony demonstration on HDV)

2) If the answer is positive to Q1, is it possible to transfer a finished EDL from a laptop running Vegas to a PC based Vegas system? (I have been reading many of your postings about EDLs and timecode, but this particular question has never been addressed.)
Yes. The project will open in both.

3)How does the Vegas timeline perform when stretched to 1 hour with numerous cuts?
I don't understand the question. If the question is, "does Vegas manage long timelines well?" then the answer is absolutely. I'm doing a 5.5 hour project at this very second, wishing I'd cut it into smaller chunks. I built it as segments, but copied all the various segments into two master projects, divided into 2 3 hour segments for DVD9 delivery.

4) What would be the minimum laptop specs required to effectively run Vegas while editing HDV content? Any particular manufacturers producing a laptop ideal for this use? Good value?
I just bought a Sony K37 for this. I wish it had the 2 gig RAM capability, but so far, it's performing great. Ask me again in 2 weeks. You need at least a 2.8 gig proc, 3.06 is better, hyperthreaded is great. You need as much RAM as possible, and an FSB of at least 533. However, if you're working with low res streams using Cineform, you won't care about the speed, not really. Worry about power for the high rez final streams when you online it.

5) Being used to the "real time" benefits of Velocity, how really "real time" is Vegas. ie: If I was outputting a 1 hour documentary to tape, how long would it take (minimal special effects)?
Velocity is ancient compared to Vegas' realtime when you consider zero hardware. Depending on the processor, and depending on filters, (blurs and other spatial filters can be nasty) but output to DV is only slightly slower than realtime in that case. If you're going to HDV, prep for a reasonably long render. 3:1 is what we're getting here with color correction etc. DPS is a decent tool, but it lacks the speed and flexibility of Vegas, and more importantly, it lacks the manufacturer and community support.

6) What are the archiving capabilities of Vegas like? ie: If I was to complete a program and archive the timeline/EDL, how easy would it be for me to re-load the EDL and re-capture the original video?
We store all media and associated veg file/EDL on either DVD or hard drive, and don't even bother recapturing, but there are tools built into Vegas to recapture media, even if you didn't save the original batch or capture information.
7) Why should I buy Vegas and not Avid for this type of programming?
Try HDV in Avid :-) Can't be done yet. Moreover, Vegas is not a huge name, but it's incredibly fast and stable. It's got an awesome support community, lots of great low-cost, easy access training tools, the most scalable NLE in the world right now, fast to use, relatively zero maintenance, fast learning curve, and all of the above answers to your questions.
Foghound wrote on 12/21/2004, 9:39 PM
Hi Spot,
I appreciate your very detailed and fast reply. No one would be happier than I if I have at last found the solution to my problem.
As you know, each platform has it's own users who are often very possessive and proud of "their" particular software of choice. Me? I'm just a dumb producer who needs a tool to get his content into a form and of a quality that a broadcaster will accept.
The other aspect of Vegas that really interests me is the quality audio side of it. I have a Nuendo suite at the moment, but again, I would love to have the flexibility and ease of having an integrated suite.
As an OT, have you worked with a product called Sonicfire Pro by Smart Sound? I need some type of soundtrack creation software as well.
Thanks again for your reply.
Bruce
Foghound wrote on 12/21/2004, 9:44 PM
Something else I forgot to ask Spot: How are you finding the HDV format? What camera are you using?
Cheers,
Bruce
Spot|DSE wrote on 12/21/2004, 9:49 PM
SonicFire Pro is a great tool if you don't mind that your music will sound like a few thousand others. If your project is destined for general public broadcast, I'd highly recommend avoiding it.
ACID is a little harder to use, but offers immeasurably more flexibility. Some of the ACID tools are also built into Vegas, BTW. If you already know Nuendo, you'll have ZERO problem picking up ACID.

I challenge any application at any price point to have the minimal learning curve and flexibility of Vegas. $99.00 or 1Mil, you can't find it. It doesn't exist.
It's not that I'm proud of what Vegas is; that's a small part of it. But what I'm proud of is what I can do with Vegas. Vegas is the smallest impediment available between what is in my brain and what I see on the screen. Other tools really get in the way of the creative process, exporting this and importing that, rendering this and rendering that, yadayadayada. I just like being able to work. Used to be I used several tools from Premiere, MSP, AVID, Commotion Pro, AE, Red, ProTools, and a host of others. Now, 95% of my work is kept in Vegas, carried with me virtually every where. I use some outside tools, mostly for 3D. With Vegas, Pixelan, Cayman Graphics,CineForm, Zenote, and a few other plugs, I'm VERY good to go anywhere.
Check out the All Things Vegas page, http://www.vasst.com/login.htm and you can download HDV, plus lots and lots of tutorials, demo files, etc.

{edit} I love HDV, it's a great format. Most of my footage is from the Z1, which isn't released yet. We just released a book on the HDV format, called "HDV:What You NEED to Know" and it's about all things related to HDV. There is also the FX1, and we have PAL footage from Luxembourg and NTSC footage from Hawaii up there that we hired from shooters. The Z1 is the cam we've chosen here at VASST, we've got a couple on order. The one that I've had limited access to is Sony's prototype.[/edit]
Foghound wrote on 12/21/2004, 10:37 PM
Hi Spot,
I envy you having the Z1 already to play with. It is the camera I will be using for my doc. Haven't ordered it yet as I'm not sure how much Canadian customs is going to ding me when I import it. Would you believe that it is about $1400 (CAD) more expensive to buy it here in Canada than it is in the States!!!???!!!
Thanks for all the pointers. I will visit all of them tomorrow. Time to get a life now.
Cheers,
Bruce
reidc wrote on 12/21/2004, 10:54 PM
Sorry to sound like a cheerleader, but from a purely practical perspective, though not yet having had to deal with HDV, I can say that I've just finished editing a 93 minute documentary in Vegas, with thousands of events in a single timeline, without a hiccup, and continue to be absolutely astounded. The project had been started on someone else's Vegas rig and the media and project files moved via firewire drive over to my system, and voils. Absolutely no issues (as it should always be but rarely is). I tell my FCP/Premiere friends this story & they don't believe me. I use a dual XEON Dell to run Vegas, so rendering is pretty fast. I should say that I still do the majority of my audio work in Nuendo because I'm so familiar with it but also because there are cleanup plugins on my system that are just not available to the rest of the DAW/NLE world. But as I get faster & more comfortable with Vegas' audio tools, I expect to move the majority of my picture-based sound work away from Nuendo and over to Vegas.

Make sure you get tons of RAM, as much as your system will allow. Archive to firewire or tape (I still don't trust DVD-R/+R for longevity), and be sure to install the render clients on spare PC's if you got 'em. Get into ACID for music, get yourself some killer multitasking picture & sound editors and build a workgroup around Vegas. You won't look back.
Foghound wrote on 12/22/2004, 11:15 AM
Hi Reidc,
Thanks for the comments. Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by "and be sure to install the render clients on spare PC's if you got 'em."? What is a render client?
I am looking into Acid Music now. It certainly looks more exciting than Sonicfire from the perspective of creating more original scores.
Cheers,
Bruce
p@mast3rs wrote on 12/22/2004, 11:26 AM
Reidc,

I couldnt agree with you more. My setup is Vegas 5, Acid, After Effects 6.5 Pro, Photoshop CS, and Encore DVD (DVDA2 still doesnt seem natural for me like Vegas does.)

Nevermind the need for all the plugins and such. Good planning and story telling with proper preparation and the tools I listed above will serve the purpose for a long time to come.

Vegas was the easiest decision for me. With Vegas, it just felt right. I tried Premiere, Avid, Pinnacle, etc.... and none of them just seemed comfortable to me. But with Vegas, I was making cuts left and right out of the box. Easily the best money I have ever spent on software.

reidc wrote on 12/22/2004, 11:32 AM
When you buy the Vegas package (or maybe it's Vegas+DVD, can't remember), you get a license for the application, of course, BUT you also get 2 licenses for render clients. This is a small software application that you install on 2 OTHER computers, allowing you to use them for render processing across a network, thereby speeding up rendering. There are some caveats, of course, but nothing serious. You just have to make sure Vegas project resources (fonts, etc) are available on the render machines locally. Others can chime in & tell you more. I can tell you that I finally got around to installing mine 3 days ago and am sorry I didn't do it sooner.

Now, what I don't know is, if you buy more than 1 Vegas package, can you pile up additional render clients as well? That is, can Vegas address more than 2 render clients across a network. Anyone? BTW (rumor time), I was at the DV Expo SCVUG/Sony shindig 2 weeks ago, and there was an Apple person in our midst, checking it all out. He told me that Apple is seriously trying to get render clients in for the next FCP upgrade, following instead of leading for a change.

One more thing. In other threads we've been discussing how to properly evangelize Vegas to the pro community. I can tell you that the moment I bring up the issue of render clients as being included with Vegas, the room goes quiet. I know others have had some issues with the RCs (intermittent, etc), but this is a BIG selling point. If there ARE endemic issues with the render clients, I urge Sony to get on this. It's a serious ace in the hole. Might as well milk it while we have the advantage.