M-AudioFW410 and Vegas... uncommon behavior?

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farss wrote on 3/22/2005, 5:13 AM
Just a few questions that might give an answer.
What bit depth and sample rate is your porject set to?
What is the bit depth and sample rate of all those tracks?
Do you have any video tracks running as well?
Are all the tracks .wav?
From memory it is possible in the 410s internal mixer to create digital feedback with some rather nasty results.
Overall though it sounds to me like the CPU has got enough horsepower to handle the task you've set it, otherwise it'd fall apart no matter what drivers your were using. However as ASIO has way lower latency and therefore a much smaller buffer if anything robs the cpu of enough cycles data isn't fed into the ASIO buffer and it empties, hence the glitch. Ive found that things like Vegas having to update the timeline when you're zoomed in too far can use enough CPU cycles to make things hiccup. Have the videoscopes updating in realtime is another CPU hog.
I'd start off with a real simple thing that works OK and keep adding things until your output goes wrong, try to localise the problem.
And one last though, how fragmented is your disk, if bits of the tracks are coming from all over the place it isn't going to help either.
Bob.
filmy wrote on 3/22/2005, 6:03 AM
Ok something i just thought off - sounds too simple here but I thought I would toss it out. This is what triggered the thought -

I go to Prefs, fiddle with settings (in fact, assign the outputs to get surrround), having my Audio Device set as M-Audio FW ASIO. All of a sudden: no more sound.

When you switch over and get no audio - does it also re-route to another mixer? I mean to the M-Audio one? As opposed to the default windows mixer? Did you check to see if the "mute all" option was clicked? Just too simple if this was the case.

I will toss this in just for the heck of it - in Vegas if I have the default Direct Sound Sourround mapper on I get sound. Using the default windows sound ampper I get sound. If I try and use ASIOI get no sound. I have to add outputs manually because they are not listed by default - but even so I still have not been able to get sound out. However using something like Amplitude the ASIO seems to work fine. So have we isolated this isn't some sort of Vegas glitch?

This is all ironic because about 4 days ago I was re-looking at the FW 410 for purchase. This all makes me stop and reconsider. I remember when Spot mentioned the 410 he seemed to rave about how wonderful it and how easy it was to just plug in and go.

*EDIT* - Some spelling
MyST wrote on 3/22/2005, 7:06 AM
Filmy, generally speaking, the 410 works without a hitch.
If you check out Echo's offerings, make sure you don't have a VIA chipset on your mobo, or else you probably will have problems.
Some others have driver problems, etc.
Isn't it RME and MOTU that have problems with Sony apps?

Mario
FuTz wrote on 3/22/2005, 10:35 AM
farss:

-16 bit depth / 44100 Hz for both project settings and media
-Media: WAV
-No video tracks at all

What I did is record 2 tracks and duplicated those 2 tracks. I added some other tracks of sound fx (from the 1001 sounds library). That brings me to 11 tracks but 6 of them are really short clips (like a few seconds for a car door slam, etc...
I used Pitch shift FX on maybe 5 of these tracks, which seem s to suck a little bit of power (if I switch these tracks off, no more glitches)
Rednroll wrote on 3/22/2005, 12:21 PM
"(if I switch these tracks off, no more glitches)"

Interesting. This tends to indicate, that this is probably not a sound card problem. Though, I can't say for sure what type of problem it is. It might even be RAM related. Sorry, I don't have a solution for you other than swapping RAM, or seeing if your MB bios settings are correct for the particular RAM you are using.

As a work around, you can right click on the audio and select "Apply Non realtime Event FX." This will bring up your plugin selector, where you can choose the Sony "Timestretch" plugin and apply the timestretch there, therefore you no longer have any realtime playback timestretching going on.
farss wrote on 3/22/2005, 1:28 PM
Same here, no problems with 410 either.
Only reason I keep saying this I see so many people with problems with various pieces of gear both audio and video or even things like printers that aren't the fault of the device, it's some dormant issue elsewhere in the system. I've oftenly found sticking with the problem until I find the root cause to be very productive, I'll oftenly weed out an issue that not only fixes the immediate problem but suddenly gets other things working better.
Bob.
FuTz wrote on 3/22/2005, 2:59 PM
And that's the feeling I got too and why I'm looking at many possibilities. I tried different memory settings (the Pagin one on drive C:/... I've put the same number for min and max as is the "common practice".
I re-checked for the DMA to be on. It was.
I re-checked everything through contro pannel/manager.
I dropped Diskeeper (not impressed; gonna use good ol'MS buit-in defrag in the future)
I set Vegas priority to "above normal" in task manager (can't find anything related to M_Audio at first sight there to set "above normal" too...)

I'm also planning to dump a few apps I don't use very often anymore ...
And I'll have another peek at the BIOS for memory, maybe I'll find something there.

I got the feeling it's the system too. And not necessarily the 1394 stuff... and not the card
FuTz wrote on 3/22/2005, 3:04 PM
What I don't get is that if I switch the Audio Device in Prefs to Direct Sound Audio Mapper or MS Sound Mapper, I got no problems.

Oh, and I test without any other program running, including antivirus...
MyST wrote on 3/22/2005, 3:21 PM
FuTz, I gotta go for now, but tell me if you'd like me to try some things.
In Vegas or Acid?
Maybe load a few long loops and then throw in some FXs? Which Fxs are you adding, I'll add them too (if they're Sony ones).
Give me the project properties you'd like me to set mine to.
Maybe you can send me your recorded tracks then I'll set everything in the project to match yours. If you can see if this happens in Acid, I'll test in Acid Pro 5... I don't have Vegas 5.
I hate posting my e-mail because I was burnt doing it before, but man, you must be going nuts by now.
So, if you want to send me your tracks, I'll post my e-mail.
Sound good?

Mario
farss wrote on 3/22/2005, 3:38 PM
ASIO has much less buffering, that's why if anythings going to fall apart it'll most likely happen when you're using the ASIO drivers. The other drives I believe have several seconds of buffering.
Bob.
pwppch wrote on 3/22/2005, 4:45 PM
>>I used Pitch shift FX on maybe 5 of these tracks, which seem s to suck a little bit of power (if I switch these tracks off, no more glitches)<<

Well the real problem finally reveals itself!

Pitch shift type processing messes with the time space continuum in Vegas, depending on how it is used.

What Pitch shift plugin are you using?
What settings for pitch shift are you using?
Have you tried using the internal pitch shift/timestreching in Vegas?
Are you applying this on a track or a bus? If so, are the settings for each track identical?
Have you considered applying these affects as non-realtime?

Peter

FuTz wrote on 3/23/2005, 3:10 AM

The question would be now: is it a baaaad thing to mixdown using Sound Mapper as the Audio Device ?
I'm asking because when I record, there doesn't seem to be a problem. I must admit I just recorded two tracks total and duplicated+added sound fx up to 11-12 tracks but I'll soon check if I can record in real time while monitoring more than one track. Guess there will be problems since it will have to play several tracks. I'll try with and without the effects. Some effects might be more system consuming than others, like with video (median filter, velocity envelopes,etc...)
But for taday I have to go on that gig. First time I'll see/record on the Z1U on a set. Eager to see this one go.
I'll be back with my gear tomorrow.
But as far as it goes for now, my main suspicions are aimed towards my machine. I'll try to tune it up as much as I can and re-test.
M-Audio don't seem to have a very impressive support from what I've read on the net but it may change. Who knows? (certainoly not me..!)
FuTz wrote on 3/23/2005, 3:21 AM
EPM:
My Pitch Shift settings are:
-one track: 1 octave higher
-one other track: 1 octave lower
I also stretched (ctrl+drag) 2 sound fx clips on different other tracks
-I did some EQing on all the tracks, practically killing low freqs on two tracks.
-I used, on three other tracks, the Smooth/Enhance filter, along with reverb and compression on most of the tracks.
-I also used the ExpressFX Dynamics filter on a few tracks.

Well, can we call it a "test" ?

But no video at all, so I figured out the system could easily handle all of this. Maybe I'm asking too much? You tell me guys 'cause since it's my first real serious audio testing with the system (I just got what I would call a "decent audio card" so...). So far I've mainly been doing video clips, which didn't involve more than a few tracks of sound (the song + a few more for "live-on the set" effects for these movies... )
I also did some kind of short documentaries with sound from the cam and, again, a song on a stereo track here and there.
But "working with actual music made in the house", it's the first time... and I'd like it to work flawlessly of course. Who wouldn't like it this way?
farss wrote on 3/23/2005, 3:58 AM
Futz from what SonyPCH is saying this isn't going to fly with ANY sound card. The problems going to lie in the amount of CPU overhead in pitch shifting, having two tracks with pitch shifting running in real time must be giving the poor CPU major grief. Render out the pitch shift to a new track and I bet you're problems go away.
As far as I know it doesn't matter much what drivers you use when monitoring a mix, even if it does you can render the whole shebang out to a new track and play that back thru ASIO for final check. Think outside the square a bit here and I think you'll be getting somewhere.
I've played out 8 tracks thru the 410 with FXs to several busses no problems but I was only using things like Eq and compression, pitch shifting has got to be a CPU hog, same as velocity envelopes with video.
Bob.
Rednroll wrote on 3/23/2005, 6:33 AM
Futz, what PCH asked was: "What Pitch shift plugin are you using?"
In other words are you using a thrd party plugin pitch shiftter on a track insert? Are you using the Vegas event Pitch/timestretching, or are you using the Sony Pitch shift/timestretch plugin? From your initial reply it seemed like you where using a third part plugin and you didn't list which one.
FuTz wrote on 3/23/2005, 6:31 PM
Well, forgot to give precision: I'm using Sony Pitch Shift with the Preserve Duration switch enabled, put on Event.
Not using the Time Stretch plugin...