m2t to HD Mpeg2 smart render problems

NickHope wrote on 3/10/2008, 2:18 PM

Steve, I'm a little confused because you say you can smart render m2t to m2t. But I'm not sure how that new rendered m2t file is different in format from the one that fails.

So when it fails, how exactly do your render settings differ from the settings in the "HDV 1080-60i" template?

Laurence wrote on 3/10/2008, 2:35 PM

It sounds like you have a formatting error in that particular mpeg2 clip. That happens quite a bit unfortunately, especially if you use regular DV tape instead of the more expensive tape that is rated for HDV.

Tom Pauncz wrote on 3/10/2008, 2:35 PM

Just starting to get into HD and started playing with m2t files. How do you turn off smart render??
Tks.. Tom

Steve Hamilton wrote on 3/10/2008, 3:43 PM

Laurence,
Thanks for the reply. I used premium panasonic HDDV tape. I don't think tape is the issue here. I acquired clips off several tapes that were used in this project (BTW, the mpeg files from these tapes all rendered ok in another NLE). I see this problem with smart rendering in all the clips.

I did consider that some GOP irregularity of the captured m2t file might be the problem, so that's why I re-rendered with Vegas (not smart render) the m2t clip to another m2t file. That secondary m2t file should be beginning to end compatible with Vegas, but when I try to smart render that file to HD Mpeg2, I get the described failure.

Steve

NickHope wrote on 3/10/2008, 3:53 PM

>> Just starting to get into HD and started playing with m2t files. How do you turn off smart render?? <<

Options > Preferences > Enable no-recompress long-GOP rendering

(at the bottom of the list. untick it)

Tom Pauncz wrote on 3/10/2008, 3:58 PM

Thanks Nick. I'll check it out.
Tom

Steve Hamilton wrote on 3/10/2008, 4:14 PM

Nick,
Thanks for your reply.
The new rendered m2t file ideally should not be any different in format from the original m2t file. I simply did this test to assure myself that smart render works at all, and that there is not some fundamental problem with the original m2t file that prevents smart render from working.

When I attempt to smart render m2t to HD Mpeg, the only codec setting that's different from the "HDV 1080-60I" template is that Output Type (video tab) is set to MPEG-2, rather than HDV.

Steve

NickHope wrote on 3/11/2008, 1:29 AM

Ah, OK Steve. Well I tried exactly this but with 50i and it gave me an exception error immediately I started the render.

Sony Vegas Pro 8.0

Version 8.0b (Build 217)

Exception 0xC0000005 (access violation) READ:0x0 IP:0x0

In Module 'vegas80.exe' at Address 0x0 + 0x0

Thread: ProgMan ID=0xB20 Stack=0x4BCE000-0x4BD0000

Registers:

 EAX=00000000 CS=0023 EIP=00000000 EFLGS=00010212

 EBX=172d3f28 SS=002b ESP=04bcedf0 EBP=04bcee1c

 ECX=dd0edb12 DS=002b ESI=78134d09 FS=0053

 EDX=00000000 ES=002b EDI=04bceee0 GS=002b

Bytes at CS:EIP:

 00000000: .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ........

 00000008: .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ........

Stack Dump:

 04BCEDF0: 2430B4C9  24300000 + B4C9 (mcmpgmux.dll)

 04BCEDF4: 172D3F28  17280000 + 53F28 

 04BCEDF8: 00000000 

 04BCEDFC: 000605F8  00030000 + 305F8 

 04BCEE00: 00000000 

 04BCEE04: 33BCDA17  33BB0000 + 1DA17 (mcplug.dll)

 04BCEE08: 033515F0  03300000 + 515F0 

 04BCEE0C: 04BCF2BC  04AD0000 + FF2BC 

 04BCEE10: 21B90028  21B90000 + 28 

 04BCEE14: 001C0000  001C0000 + 0 

 04BCEE18: 00000000 

 04BCEE1C: 00000008 

 04BCEE20: 33BC951B  33BB0000 + 1951B (mcplug.dll)

 04BCEE24: 33BC2150  33BB0000 + 12150 (mcplug.dll)

 04BCEE28: 04BCEEE0  04AD0000 + FEEE0 

 04BCEE2C: 1659FF18  160B0000 + 4EFF18 

> 04BCEE38: 78180B6B  78130000 + 50B6B (MSVCR80.dll)

> 04BCEEB8: 31F94099  31F90000 + 4099 (aviplug.dll)

> 04BCF1BC: 17161514  17080000 + E1514 (sftrkfx1.dll)

> 04BCF1D8: 17161514  17080000 + E1514 (sftrkfx1.dll)

> 04BCF1EC: 211F1D1B  20EF0000 + 301D1B (sony4vem.dll)

> 04BCF1F4: 23211F1D  23200000 + 11F1D (mcmpegin.dll)

> 04BCF2C0: 0074005C  00400000 + 34005C (vegas80.exe)

> 04BCF2C4: 00730065  00400000 + 330065 (vegas80.exe)

  04BCF2C8: 002E0074  002D0000 + 10074 

  04BCF2CC: 0032006D  002D0000 + 5006D 

  04BCF2D0: 00000074 

  04BCF2D4: 00000000 

> 04BCF4C8: 7D61F78C  7D600000 + 1F78C (ntdll.dll)

> 04BCF4D4: 7D5600E0  7D4C0000 + A00E0 (kernel32.dll)

> 04BCF4D8: 7D639DCC  7D600000 + 39DCC (ntdll.dll)

> 04BCF4DC: 7D61F78C  7D600000 + 1F78C (ntdll.dll)

> 04BCF544: 7D61F1F8  7D600000 + 1F1F8 (ntdll.dll)

> 04BCF548: 7D639DD0  7D600000 + 39DD0 (ntdll.dll)

> 04BCF550: 7D639DCC  7D600000 + 39DCC (ntdll.dll)

> 04BCF554: 7D61F78C  7D600000 + 1F78C (ntdll.dll)

> 04BCF564: 7D61F78C  7D600000 + 1F78C (ntdll.dll)

> 04BCF578: 7D5600E0  7D4C0000 + A00E0 (kernel32.dll)

> 04BCF584: 7D61F78C  7D600000 + 1F78C (ntdll.dll)

> 04BCF590: 7D5600E0  7D4C0000 + A00E0 (kernel32.dll)

> 04BCF5BC: 7D62BB7C  7D600000 + 2BB7C (ntdll.dll)

> 04BCF5C0: 7D62BC15  7D600000 + 2BC15 (ntdll.dll)

> 04BCF5E0: 7D62BB7C  7D600000 + 2BB7C (ntdll.dll)

> 04BCF5E4: 7D62BC15  7D600000 + 2BC15 (ntdll.dll)

> 04BCF618: 7D61F5ED  7D600000 + 1F5ED (ntdll.dll)

> 04BCF61C: 7D4E338A  7D4C0000 + 2338A (kernel32.dll)

> 04BCF62C: 7D61F5ED  7D600000 + 1F5ED (ntdll.dll)

> 04BCF658: 7D4E338A  7D4C0000 + 2338A (kernel32.dll)

> 04BCF670: 1716CC28  17080000 + ECC28 (sftrkfx1.dll)

> 04BCF67C: 0076F406  00400000 + 36F406 (vegas80.exe)

  04BCF680: 0AF88038  0AC00000 + 388038 

  04BCF684: 164317C8  160B0000 + 3817C8 

  04BCF688: 078C7724  07760000 + 167724 

  04BCF68C: 00000002 

> 04BCF69C: 007703E8  00400000 + 3703E8 (vegas80.exe)

  04BCF6A0: 00000010 

  04BCF6A4: 0AE11970  0AC00000 + 211970 

  04BCF6A8: 165BFDF0  160B0000 + 50FDF0 

  04BCF6AC: 0AF88040  0AC00000 + 388040 

> 04BCF6C0: 013C7508  01310000 + B7508 (vegas80k.dll)

  04BCF6C4: 0AF88048  0AC00000 + 388048 

  04BCF6C8: 161EC548  160B0000 + 13C548 

  04BCF6CC: 003A0064  002D0000 + D0064 

> 04BCF6D0: 0074005C  00400000 + 34005C (vegas80.exe)

- - -

 04BCFFF0: 00000000 

 04BCFFF4: 005258F0  00400000 + 1258F0 (vegas80.exe)

 04BCFFF8: 00ADA678  00400000 + 6DA678 (vegas80.exe)

 04BCFFFC: 00000000

What do you need MPEG-2 for rather than HDV?

owlsroost wrote on 3/11/2008, 3:32 AM

Just tried with HDV 50i source to MPEG-2 1440 x 1080 50i out - had the same error as Nick Hope when choosing Transport Stream output, but Program or Elementary Stream output smart-rendered without crashing with the short clip I tried.

Note that just changing the stream type to MPEG-2 can change settings on the other tabs, so you need to check that the other settings are still as per the HDV template.

Tony

Steve Hamilton wrote on 3/11/2008, 10:29 AM

Tony,
Thanks for your feedback doing a test. Knowing that someone else was able to make it work helps immensely. I think I've narrowed the problem down to the VBV buffer size setting. It needs to be 896. At that setting, I've been able to successfully smart render a number of smallish clips (1-3 minutes), and I'm in the middle of smart rendering a one-hour capture (35% done and still ok). If I change is back to the previous setting, 224, it crashes like before.

So, now I can move on to the real focus of what I was trying to test - whether the Vegas smart render rebuilds the GOP structure at cuts or transitions properly. My experience with MSP8 was that the Main Concept Mpeg codec didn't smart render these points correctly, so one would get a couple of frames of fragmentary digitization immediately after cuts or transitions - not in all cases, but some, and enough to be a really annoying glitch in otherwise good quality work. It probably depends on exactly where in the GOP structure the cut or transition occurs. This makes the behavior tedious to test.

Steve

Steve Hamilton wrote on 3/11/2008, 10:58 AM

Nick,
Thanks for running a test! Check my other post. I seem to have found the codec setting that was the cause of my crashes, which look much like the one you generated.

As to why I'd want to render to Mpeg2 rather than m2t (HDV), the latter is only useful for outputting to tape back to my HV20. With an Mpeg2 file, I can (and have) burn an HDDVD (45 minutes on a DL-DVD-R) or port the file to my HDTivo. Authoring a Blu-Ray disk would also require a Mpeg2 file or the M2V variant. So, ideally smart rendering would work amongst the variants of Mpeg2 to afford the best flexibility.

Steve

owlsroost wrote on 3/11/2008, 11:27 AM

Steve,

My experience with MSP8 was that the Main Concept Mpeg codec didn't smart render these points correctly, so one would get a couple of frames of fragmentary digitization immediately after cuts or transitions - not in all cases, but some, and enough to be a really annoying glitch in otherwise good quality work.

I know what you mean - I've used the MPEG smart-rendering in Ulead VideoStudio quite a bit, and it's always been iffy (I tried to get Ulead to sort out the problems a while back, but they gave up after after making some improvements and I switched to Womble - the Ulead smart-rendering code was their own, as far as I know).

As for VP8 MPEG smart-rendering - not done much testing with HDV, but SD smart-rendering (not officially supported) basically works OK except that I have occasional problems with - guess what ? - two degraded frames after edits.....note this might not happen with HDV, I haven't checked.

I've flagged this up with Sony support, but if you email me (click on my username then again to email via the forum) I'll send you back something useful to try....

Tony

(See [url=http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?Forum=4&MessageID=580758] for SD MPEG smart-render info)

nolonemo wrote on 3/11/2008, 1:04 PM

>>As to why I'd want to render to Mpeg2 rather than m2t (HDV), the latter is only useful for outputting to tape back to my HV20. With an Mpeg2 file, I can (and have) burn an HDDVD (45 minutes on a DL-DVD-R) or port the file to my HDTivo.<<

I've burned HD-DVD to DVD-R from smart-rendered m2t files (not mpeg2) out of Vegas 8, using Ulead Movie Studio, so it can be done, depending on what application you're using.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 3/11/2008, 2:53 PM

Gentlemen,

please try following (testet for 1080 50i and 1080 60i):

Take the mainconcept mpeg2 "HDV 1080 50i" or the "HDV 1080 60i" template in the mainconcept encoder.

Within the encoder template do following:

1. in "Video", change HDV to MPEG-2

2. now go to "System", and change "transport" to "program"

3. only after 2. change back to "Video" and set the data rate to 25.000.000 and constant

Save that as a new template - and enjoy your program stream template, that will smartrender in a perfect way too!

Steve Hamilton wrote on 3/11/2008, 5:06 PM

Yes, that's what (through a less direct path) I ended up with and it does indeed work. Somewhere in my permutations of testing the VBV buffer size got set lower and I didn't notice. That resulted in a pretty quick crash on each render attempt.

Thanks to all for your advice and support. This is a good group!

Steve

NickHope wrote on 3/11/2008, 10:38 PM

That method now smart renders without crashing. Thanks Wolfgang.

And (based on a very small sample) the rendered files seem to behave nicer in 8.0b than the same format files I rendered in Womble MPEG Video Wizard. So I wonder what's up with them that Vegas (since 8.0b) doesn't like.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 3/12/2008, 4:44 AM

Womble is much faster, but does not generate a complete new GOP structure during a smartrendering process, as far as I have seeb. That can generate some problems.

4eyes wrote on 3/12/2008, 10:42 AM

If it helps: I was somewhat using these settings before ulead MovieFactory would accept transport stream video. MovieFactory only liked Program Stream format.
But to keep the video in transport stream container as mpeg-2 format this should work.
I've found the difference between the HDV & MPEG-2 selection is the "Sector Size" on the "System" Tab gets toggled around. Any MainConcept Encoder I've worked with uses 188 for TS container. This settings is being changed to 312.

All I do is under the "Video Tab" change the format from HDV to MPEG-2.
Then set the bit-rate to Constant 25,000,000
Include the Audio
On the "System" Tab you will see the "Sector Size" is 312
Toggle the Stream Type from Transport Stream to Program Stream and then Back to Transport Stream. This will reset the sector size and now the "Sector Size" should say 188.
Then the smartrender should work.
This is working on my computer without generating any faults.
Actually, when you do this I think it's really the same as the HDV template anyway.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 3/12/2008, 12:53 PM

Well, Uleads Moviefactory 6+ accepts HDV2 streams without new encoding, so for that tool I would not change anything in the 1080 50i template (beside the quality parameter, as "best" and 31).

NickHope wrote on 3/12/2008, 1:16 PM

31?

owlsroost wrote on 3/12/2008, 1:49 PM

31?

Quality slider on the 'Video' tab fully to the right (= 31).

Tony

NickHope wrote on 3/12/2008, 2:31 PM

Oh! I've only just noticed that slider isn't fully to the right on all the HDV and Blu-ray templates. Strange. I wonder why it isn't. Encoding time I guess but I bet most users would want that on 31 by default. It is on 31 for all the SD templates.

4eyes wrote on 3/12/2008, 3:10 PM

Any setting of 0-31 couldn't be applied unless you re-encoded the video.
Some of the videos I've made using that max compression setting for HDV may seem to be over compressed, hard to explain what they looked like but I leave it at the default setting now.

Yes, MovieFactory with it's updates now supports TS or PS and passes it through the encoder, nice feature.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 3/12/2008, 3:35 PM

Right, as long as you smartrender the material, either to m2t or to mpeg2-PS, it does not matter. However, most material will have some parts that must be rendered - and here it will matter.