Major Complaints and Big Questions

MUTTLEY wrote on 2/6/2004, 12:46 AM

This is killing me. I have been pinching my pennies for the upgrade to DVD and I cannot begin to tell you how deflated I am. As a long time user of Sonic Foundry Products ( now Sony ) I am amazed at just how many corners it seems have been cut. It thusfar appears as though some of the most basic DVD authoring options and features are now where to be found.

1) Not being able to just type text and link it to the file/menu/video that you want is baffeling.

2) Although I have managed to bring in an image not as a background ( God forbid it was drag and drop ) it does not look as though there is a simple way to use it as a link either.

3) Is there no way to " Play All " ?

4) If you put a scene on the menu, as in click it to play it, after its done it goes back to the menu instead of playing the rest ? Your kidding right ?

5) No Transparency for images ? Doesnt look as though I can use em as buttons anyway so whats the point right ?

6) What is with this navigation ? Could it be any less intuitive or any more counter productive to a decent work flow ? There's no back ? I have to go to the drop down menu to change what I'm working on ?

7) Double clicking on text doesnt allow you to edit it. I have to find the little buttion or F2.

8) Is it possible to get a video clip to play as an intro before going to the main menu ? As in, it plays this clip first as soon as you put in the video.

9) Considering all the software they make with timelines, how hard would it have been to add one to this ? Uleads doing what SF should have. A tileline at the bottom, drop in your clips, make em chapters or play all. C'mon, this is SF and Vegas's forte' !!!

10) How do I make a link to a page that has just text ?

11) How much does this thing cost ?

I was 120% confidant in Sonic Foundry/Sony to put out a better product than Ulead. Man was I wrong. I am absolutly astounded at how little it appears they put into this. It truely looks like nothing more than a hurried afterthough. This thing needs some major revaming and a huge markdown until its a product worth using and recomending. Am I the only one who feels completely let down ? I see no reason to blow smoke up anyones a** on this one, its a weak program at best and the bottom of the rung for a SF developed program.

If I missed something here, please clue me in. I would love to hear how wrong I am and that the solutions are just a mouse click away and that I just missed it. If there are work arounds, I'll be happy to hear those as well. But the truth is, for things this basic, there shouldnt need to be a " workaround".

When is the next update due ? This thing is in desperate need of some help. And do yourselves a favor and go look at Ulead if ya need a clue as to how DVD authoring should be done. So why than didnt I just by that ? ... Because I trusted you !

- Ray

www.undergroundplanet.com

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Comments

MUTTLEY wrote on 2/9/2004, 4:51 PM

I'll let the many posts from other members of this forum, both in this thread and countless others, validate my impression that DVDA has numerous shortcomings.

This quote from SonyEPM would further suggest that it's less than it could be " First: Like all the rest of our apps, there's always some "MUST HAVE" feature that doesn't make it into a given release ... Do we have quirks, and bugs, yes ...An update will be coming out with a new Sony splash screen but that's it for 1.0- a branding update only ... " That was on 10/29/2003, we have yet to see any improvement, updates, or solutions forthcoming.

And to quote you yourself from another thread: " Yeah....the no end actions kinda suck - and not being able to link to where I want to go sucks - and not being able to create transitions from menu to movie (directly) kinda sucks " Though you go on to say you had found workarounds to some of these things, the fact remains that even AFTER you had found workarounds you still rattled out a list of things that " suck ". And in this very thread you even state " ( I ) haven't had too many problems with it. ", which would indicate the fact that you HAVE indeed had problems with it.

While it is true that I was possibly slightly over zealous in my initial post, the fact of the matter is that I am not made of money. I had scrimped and saved since its release and for me personally, dropping $300.00 on DVDA was a tremendous sacrifice. I made this purchase on good faith based on my previous experience with SoFo/Sony and DVDA simply doest not live up to my expectations. This applies to its usability, functionality, and features ( or lack thereof ). Considering my financial outlay for this product, I was more than a little frustrated and felt as though I had been taken. I spent a whole lot more on DVDA than had I gone elsewhere and as a result am stuck with an inferior product. I am not in a financial situation where I can now simply switch gears and buy something else.

As for the rest of your insults they have no weight or bearing on anything that has been said in this thread and amount to nothing more than immature and childish name calling. While I pointed out your list of shortcomings, lack of moral character, and blatant hypercriticism, you can only retort with " next time why not have them put in a couple extra pills ". How witty. And your saying " Go out and build a better mousetrap if the one you are currently moaning about isn't doing the job for you. " is so pathetically week its borderline laughable. This isn't a 99 cent mousetrap, its a $300.00 piece of software and should be expected to function as such. I shouldn't have to write a program, that's what I paid Sony for.

I would greatly appreciate it you could just ignore this thread and refrain from posting all together as you obviously have no interest in either its purpose or original intent. All you have done is insult and provoke, neither of which can benefit anyone on this board and can only instigate reaction. I feel that this thread does serve a purpose and all you have done is convolute what I believe are legitimate complaints and/or concerns by loyal, PAYING, Sony customers. We paid for our copies of DVDA, did you ? I would love to see that reciept.

- Ray

www.undergroundplanet.com

SonyEPM wrote on 2/9/2004, 5:48 PM

Hello all-

First, I cannot say anything about a future version (what/when/how much) other than

a)"DVDA is absolutely not a dead product and is being actively worked on" and

b) "No free update of DVDA 1.0x will magically appear with a bunch of features that some other apps (now) have "

Sorry I have to be vague at this point (2/9/04)...

Second, what specific features of DVDA 1.0, as listed in any of our printed materials or on our website, do not work as described?

MUTTLEY wrote on 2/9/2004, 7:17 PM

SonyEPM, thanks for posting.

The point of your question is perfectly clear without my having to respond. I have not said, nor accused, SoFo/Sony of explicitly defrauding its customers. I will be the first to admit that I did not pour over every spec sheet that may be available regarding available features before my purchase. I have not accused SoFo/Sony of explicitly misrepresenting DVDA. I do however think that implicitly, many of the features that any knowledgeable customer could reasonably assume would be included in a $300.00 DVD Authoring program ( i.e. end actions etc ) are predictably not mentioned. This forum is littered with questions of people asking " How can I ... " and the reason they ask in this way is because they " assume " that they can do whatever it is that they are trying to do, when in fact either they can't, or they are forced to implement some type of workaround to deal with this programs failings.

Much of my dissatisfaction in not solely based on the features available as might be indicated in available Sony materials, but moreover how they are implemented. Throughout these forums users have been verbal about this programs perceived shortcomings and limitations, I'm certain that you don't need me to list them all. I feel confidant that you are well aware of the issues at hand.

But in answer to your question, two things I did find in your promotional literature that I would beg to differ:

Intuitive interface
DVD Architect features a streamlined and intuitive interface, delivering easy workflow and professional results.

DVD Architect — An extensive set of professional tools

Sorry to say that with all of my experience I did not find DVDA to be intuitive, extensive, or professional. I will wholeheartedly agree that my opinion is subjective but never the less, that does not discredit neither my complaints nor those of the many users who have voiced similar opinions of their own. At $300.00 for an upgrade I am nothing less than gravely disappointed and in that, a company and name brand that I had absolute faith and trust in has sadly been relegated to " buyer beware ".

The only last thing I would care to say is that I want you and everyone else here to understand that thus far I have been the biggest and most outspoken fan of Vegas that I have ever met. I've stated that or words similar on many occasions. If you had a Vegas T-Shirt I'd ware it. If you ever had the chance to hear me talk to other producers/directors you would probably want to hire me as a salesman. " What do you edit with ? " is always one of the first questions people who are in the biz ask , and I love being asked. Those conversations more often than not wind up with the other person saying " I'll have to check that out. " I say this because if all you know of me are my complaints it might be tempting to dismiss me as someone who is just generally dissatisfied, a complainer, or someone who simply dislikes Vegas. I can't assure you enough that that is not the case. I couldn't wait to get DVDA, I'd saved for months, I sincerely expected that I would dive right in and love it. Sure I expected a learning curve, but what I found was beyond anything so simple. I am so outspoken in my dissatisfaction not only because I'm out three hundred bucks, but because more than anything I want to have the same feelings about DVDA that I do with Vegas. Right now not only do I not have anything to brag about, I have something that, if pressed, I honestly could not, or would not, recommend.

Again, I appreciate your reply even if it does little to dissuade my frustration. It is somewhat reassuring that at least your keeping a proverbial eye on things.

Best regards;

- Ray

www.undergroundplanet.com

PeterWright wrote on 2/9/2004, 7:52 PM

Fair enough, Ray, you've expressed yourself well, but you're not really "out three hundred bucks".

For a start, you have an AC3 encoder which is worth a fair bit of that $300, but also you have a program that can and does produce very impressive DVDs.

We all know what's NOT there - this has been posted over and over for 12 months, but if you take a breath and see what you can do with what IS there - Motion Backgrounds, Motion Buttons, Sub-Menus etc , you'll find it quite easy to produce something worthwhile - I've seen your site and you have obvious talent ....

Obviously you haven't found it intuitive, but once you get used to the workflow it has some very smooth features.

... and, for your $300 you also qualify for the eagerly awaited Upgrade ....

Sab wrote on 2/9/2004, 8:15 PM

I have to agree with Peter. We've been very productive with DVDA, while patiently waiting for the obvious upgrade necessities. Using the AC3 audio allows us to put longer programs on a DVD, something we were unable to do with DVDWS 1.3.

The other thing in DVDA's favor is the stability. Although I've seen some problems on this forum about strange errors, I don't think the program has EVER crashed on us ofter making hundreds of DVDs. Maybe we just got lucky but we're happy about that just the same.

The automatic chapter points from the Vegas timeline is a huge time saver too.

Mike

wobblyboy wrote on 2/9/2004, 8:37 PM

I have Sonic DV, DVD Workshop, and DVDA. While I have some complainats, mainly lack of end options, I still use DVDA more than other programs. The workflow is easier and quicker. I have often, just to check out what someone said I couldn't do on this or other forums, set up and authored a DVD in two or three minutes. I can't do that with DVD Workshop. Editing endpoints, setting button windows, setting scene selection menus are all much quicker in DVDA. DVDA creates fine menus and works as advertised. I have been able to quickly author and create high quality professional DVDs using DVDA. If DVDA added end of play options, more flexibility in linking, and multiple audio tracks, I would use it exclusivly. I fully expect that these options will be available in the next version.

aussiemick wrote on 2/9/2004, 9:38 PM

Now I am not going into a slanging match. It was more a case of finding out what wasn't in DVDA after using it. No software meets your total expectations ever.
It was the lack of end actions was its biggest failing, not because I could not live without it, but people I gave DVD's to found them very different to use. Just fixing this obvious shortcoming with an upgrade would have overcome a lot of complaints.
I think you have done yourselves (Sony) a big disservice in failing to rectify this quickly and leaving us in the dark for so long as to when you plan to release a new version, surely you would have realised that the first version of a program would have had to be updated within a short frame time to overcome oversights.
DVDA has great potential no doubt but it is no use not to exploit that potential with the improvements needed to take it to the top of the tree.
As users we want to produce a product that conforms to other peoples experience in playing DVD's, not having to explain their quirkyness.
Next version please give us more control over the settings and what is acceptable as a DVD by DVDA. If we stuff it up that is our problem but with out this flexibility DVDA locks up the standard to tightly. We cannot use material from third party applications as it generally has to be recompressed by DVDA.
My last thoughts on this topic. I know the next version will be a huge improvement even if only for one feature.

richard-courtney wrote on 2/10/2004, 7:43 AM

Johnmeyer I found the DVD Workshop feature list impressive.

While we both have found tools to make something work the way
we want, I would like a "swiss army knife" in my pocket. I have a
toolbox in my garage that I spend alot of time sorting out to find
the right hammer for the job.

Even with all the functions, I can't say I want to spend $399 more
for another tool until Sony shows me what they have to offer!

Thanks for all your input.

johnmeyer wrote on 2/10/2004, 8:40 AM

Even with all the functions, I can't say I want to spend $399 more for another tool until Sony shows me what they have to offer!

I feel somewhat the same way, but only to a point. Quite frankly, various comments made by Sony in these forums, as well as comments attributed to them at various tradeshows, make it appear as though they do not understand -- even a little bit -- the nature of the competitive landscape around them.

I sense an aloof arrogance from the Sony camp -- something that wasn't there under Sonic Foundry management. I can only speculate as to its cause. Meanwhile, my friends from Tawain — Ulead — have a wonderful product; Sonic has a whole range of offerings; and DVD Lab is putting all the features of a $1,000 authoring program into an under $100 package.

Sony, wake up: The competitive environment is about to change -- radically.

This brings me to my main point: Those that sniff at DVD Labs' humble origins and currently slightly buggy behavior had better brush up on their history.

For grins, read this article from Seybold, from about ten years ago. Seybold Report on Desktop Publishing

As background to both this article, and to my argument, the leaders in CD recordable software ten years ago were Meridian and Dataware, both of whom sold their software for thousands of dollars. During the mid 1990s, prices of CD-ROM recordable units dropped from $4,000 to $400, but these vendors (Meridian and Dataware) didn't understand the change in the market. They turned up their nose and sniffed at all the "consumer" features that were put into EasyCD Creator

They completely lost the market.

I can go further back and tell you all about Wang, Harris Lanier, and other word processing companies that dominated their field in the 1970s and early 1980s until the price of PCs came down and companies like Satellite Software (later called WordPerfect) included all those high-end word processing features for 1/10 the price, and made the high-end hardware and software obsolete.

During the browser wars of just a few years ago, the various competitors, led my Microsoft and Netscape, were putting new features in their products and releasing them every few weeks (everything about the Internet was sped up).

Lesson for Sony:

You better be ready to add TONS of features to your products; you need to be ready to release these features on an accelerated schedule; and you better be ready to drop your prices. If you don't, you will lose.

History guarantees it.

farss wrote on 2/10/2004, 12:36 PM

John,
I agree with everything that you're saying however I still see one major hurdle. I cannot see a way to make a DVD authoring app that is both intuititive and allows you to use all the features that a DVD is capable of.
I suspect this is one of the major hurdles that Sony have had to come to grips with. I would have imagined that if the first release of DVDA had offered all the capabilities that could be offered most of us would have had a very hard time coming to grips with it. There were already products out there that let you do 'everything', admittedly at a MUCH higher pricepoint. I've looked at some of them and they're far from intuitive, but I cannot see how they could be any other way.
Now the majority of people simply wnat to make a DVD of their video, most of the consumers and my clients as well, don't understand that there is a major difference between a VHS tape and a DVD.

LongTallTexan wrote on 2/10/2004, 12:56 PM

You know it's funny to hear all of this back and forth slinging. Tell me one piece of software period that doesn't have it's short commings. I have been in the TV/Video bussiness for more then 10 years now. I worked for FOX TV for 7 years and I can tell you this. When I stumbled accross Vegas 2.0 I was an instant suporter. I showed it to my FOX familly and they agreed. With all of the upgrades and new releases I have been more then pleased. They have addressed and tackled every concern I have posted into this forum. With the addition of DVDA, I jumped on board with no knowledge of Authoring and within 1 month had authored an incredible DVD package that has made me plenty. It was and still is the easiest editing and authoring aplication I have ever ran accross. I can tell you that a few of my former FOX friends even use Vegas for on air promos we have all seen on FOX at one time or the other. My point in conclusion is this, This is the first release of DVDA and it surely will not be the last. You can rest assured that SONY will push this product to the forefront. And besides if you are satisfied with a $100.00 app. then by all means use it. But as for me and mine I will use VEGAS/DVDA exclusivly. Just my 2 cents.

L.T.

MUTTLEY wrote on 2/10/2004, 2:24 PM

I think that both we, and Sony, have a tremendous opportunity here and I for one would hate to see that opportunity lost by fighting amongst ourselves. We have a phenomenal forum to express ourselves so that DVDA can be improved. Sony has the chance to take that feedback and create an incredible piece of software and improve upon the strong foundation they already have in place. This is the path to a solution.

When I show a new vid to my friends ( they always get to see my work first ) I always tell them to let me know what they didn't like. Having them just go " Wow, that's great " or blow smoke up my a** does nothing to help me improve.

From the majority of posts that I've read throughout this board, even those that appear to have found a place for DVDA have a litany of features they would like to see either added or improved. I would kindly suggest that we focus on those in this thread instead debating the " Pros And Cons ".

The question is not Vegas. that has never been the issue. I would only be redundant to point out the many reasons I found DVDA to come up short and my subsequent angst since making the purchase, I see no need to reiterate. What I would like to see and hear are the problems, issues, and feature request of others. The more critiques and suggestions that are listed, the greater the the chance there is for a clear consensus of what absolutely needs to be improved.

If Sony listens, I feel confidant that they would have a much greater chance of appeasing those of us that are dissatisfied, winning back the trust of those who have left for other DVD burning software, and increase overall sales by having a program that is certain to out perform anything on the market.

As I said, I simply want a program that I can be as proud of, and advocate as strongly as I have with Vegas.

- Ray

www.undergroundplanet.com

wobblyboy wrote on 2/10/2004, 7:46 PM

I'll say it one more time and hope Sony is listening: end of play options, more flexibility in linking, and multiple audio tracks. Thank you.

williamconifer wrote on 2/11/2004, 6:32 AM

>>>5) No Transparency for images ? Doesnt look as though I can use em as buttons anyway so whats the point right ?

See my post here
http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=22&MessageID=252401

jack

videoman69 wrote on 2/11/2004, 2:03 PM

1.) End Actions!
2.) CSS and or Macrovision flagging.
3.) Hard Core DVD-9 support
4.) Ability to "lock" movies.
You know what I mean.
Viewer cannot do anything once
a selection is made until it goes
to the next menu or movie.
5.) Better navigation tools.
6.) Visual as well as chart tools
to help navigation.
7.) DLT support
8.) External DVD Burner support.
9.) Intitituve chapter selection - nothing cryptic.

I used DVD-A to a point to realize it was not much more than
DVDit.
I have tried Encore but do not like it.
95% of the DVD work I do is still done with my
old Spruce Virtuoso.
I think I will get out of the business if the only choice left
is DVDSP!

jetdv wrote on 2/11/2004, 2:14 PM

#8 is already there. I use it with an external burner in a firewire enclosure on every burn.

videoman69 wrote on 2/11/2004, 3:02 PM

Fantastic! - Only 6 or 7 needed improvements left!

videoman69 wrote on 2/11/2004, 3:05 PM

What other features would you pay for?
I mean I have spent about $2000 on DVD software I DON'T use.
I looked at Sonic Producer at $5000 - what a dog that was.
Spruce was the only contender in the PC race - no wonder why
Apple killed that. If you look at DVDSP you can see Spruce in it.

COme on I thought SONY had bigger balls than this!

videoman69 wrote on 2/20/2004, 11:10 AM

COme on I thought SONY had bigger balls than this!

umim wrote on 2/26/2004, 10:59 PM

My DVDA refuse to even start!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is nothing but RIPPPPPP OFFFFFFF!!!!.

jetdv wrote on 2/27/2004, 11:20 AM

My DVDA refuse to even start!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is nothing but RIPPPPPP OFFFFFFF!!!!.

Have you tried contacting Tech Support? Runs fine on every system I've tried it on.

thier wrote on 3/2/2004, 12:36 PM

re: "what specific features of DVDA 1.0, as listed in any of our printed materials or on our website, do not work as described?"

Refering to

http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/Products/showproduct.asp?PID=810&FeatureID=6961

Some features that do not work as described in the published program specs include:

*** "Build professional menu-based DVDs"

It's hardly "professional" when you have to use a kludgey work-around to get the most simple return-to-submenu functionality to work as expected.

*** "Import a wide variety of formats, including AVI, MPEG-1&2 video, AC-3, and ..."

MPEG-2 files produced by programs other than Vegas exhibit multiple problems, including (but not limited to):
1. Audio sync is not maintained
2. OUT trim point is ignored -- video output continues to end of source, regardless of OUT point selection; oddly, the audio output IS trimmed!

Also refer to Sony Knowledgebase Answer ID 84 which clearly states "You can import MPEG-2...from other apps...").

Well, you *can* import them, but don't expect to get any usable results.

*** "Burn using most DVD burning hardware "

"most" ??? The number of DVD burners NOT supported by this software is huge compared to the very limited number of officially supported devices listed on

http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/Products/showproduct.asp?PID=810&FeatureID=6989&FeatureTL=6967

Given the absence of newer, popular devices on that list, Sony appears to have stopped testing their software with DVD burners a long time ago and are falling ever farther behind the industry in this important and rapidly evolving area.