Filmy: Would you mind telling me briefly what NLE or NLE's you are used to, and what features are the most essential? If you don't want to shout it on the Vegas forum my email is vitalforces@earthlink.net. I am perhaps a little insane but am seriously considering changing from (or taking a break from) a 20-year law career into video editing when I keep my promise to my actress wife to move from NYC to Burbank within the next 2 years. (I was in radio before that and never lost interest in production-side work.) Also, I will be editing my own feature, written directed & shot with my wife, mid-year next year, and don't want to end up with such all nighters.

I've never seen the "black frame" issue on anything i've done. The "pre"render rendering everything is annoying (why can't it just do FX/transitions???).

But, with the other stuff (cuts, grouping, etc.) That probely just the way Vegas works. I didn't know it until a couple months ago, but it seems ALL (or most) other NLE's are like Avid. And I can't stand the way those ones work. Vegas isn't like Avid (or FCP, Premiere, etc). so it will take anyone who has used the Avid based editors a while to get used to it. Kinda like how some filmmakers say that HD Movie shooting sucks: it doesn't it's just different then film (just like audio people complained when audio started going digital about 2 decades ago).

"The "pre"render rendering everything is annoying (why can't it just do FX/transitions???)."

Actually, this is exactly how V4 works on my end -- it renders transitions and effects only, and outputs a wave 64 file -- then PTT starts.

I have only one bug in V4 that can be reporduced -- the PTT process starts prior to the deck recording, by a random amount of time generally around 5 seconds long. I'd had a few emails and posts back and forth about this, all to no avail. Loading VV3 and PTT works fine -- same media, same settings, same deck :/ So I just extend my color bars to ten seconds instead of five ...

Several people have reported using V4 for long-form with no complaints or problems. I know Douglas has done it in the past, as has Lance Bachelder. There are others, too. I wonder if some of your problems have to do with your machine's setup, and how much regular maintenance you put it through -- do you defrag often enough, have enough RAM, fast enough drives, etc. ?

Have you recently done a "repair" of Vegas? This seems to solve a lot of weird anomalies people experience.

- jim

Instead if drag and drop try the technique of using the Trimmer (there's an option to have double-clikcikng open thing in the Trimmer first which I use) and then the 'A' key to add it to the timeline at the current position -- this will make your inserts a lot less hit and miss.

filmy,
I can't comment on most of your items, since I don't seem to be experiencing them. But the change from 100% to 99% opacity on a video track, I have seen. The arrow keys behave differently, depending on what item has the "focus". If the focus goes to a video track itself, i.e. the clip on the track, then left/right arrows move the cursor on the timeline. If the focus is on the video track box (left side of the timeline display) then left/right arrows affect the video "level" control.

I use the arrow keys to move on the timeline, so I get this little issue a lot. I've made it a habit to go back, just before render, and make sure that the level slider is at 100%.

Perfect? No, it's a little quirk that VV has that I wish it didn't. But having used some other editors, I still favor VV.

Regards and good luck in your work,

Don

Go to search and type in "Black Frames" and see what comes up. The problem dates back to VV2.0 and has never been resolved.

John

Of course every problem you had is strictly a Vegas problem, no system problems,no human error problems,

No doubt Vegas has some issues , as do all systems,we routinely edit long projects on Vegas and have had a few quirks , mostly bin issues no more though than i have on other systems,,, just different problems.

I've been doing long form for 3 years with Vegas. I don't have these problems either. I use slugs regularly, no issues there. Prerender DOES only render any edited media, never touches DV-only media. IF it's had anything done to it at the track level, of course it gets prerendered.
I can't comment much on PTT: I don't use it ever for long form. I render long form in DV and uncompressed format as 2 separate files, using a modified script from Ed Troxel.
I know that Filmy is a pro based on the level of his posts on the DMN, but I submit that this behavior is the result of either some weirdness being inserted via another application, a strange anomoly in the Vegas installation, sampling issues generated at capture, or other non-Vegas issue. I see the extra frame inserted on occasion, but it's only been in Vegas 3.0c that I've seen it. Only other issue in Vegas was after installing Ulead's Workshop, I couldn't open copies of wav files in Forge, and so had to do a reinstall of 4.0D to repair the issue. I keep snapping enabled, so don't have the frame of black ever. I keep auto cross fades off, always. RAM preview is set to ZERO most of the time, as Boris and other frame-served tools don't like RAM preview settings at anything but.
Vegas doesn't think for you. If a track header/track is not selected, then Vegas inserts media to a new track. Makes sense to me.....but maybe not to others. If a header is selected, then Vegas pastes media to that line.
Vegas does send audio directly to the track below it, in every case. If there is no track and you insert video to a new track, then the audio track is created directly beneath the video track. I do wish that this were a little different, in that I'd like to be able to add all audio to one track for instance, and then add video to multiple tracks.
Vegas DOES require thinking on both the technical side and on the creative side. Anyone who doesn't think Vegas requires thought is either a fool or doesn't do serious work. Vegas DOES make what are often difficult tasks very simple.
What might work better for some, is if Vegas had a track limitation, ie; a pref that allowed users to say "Never more than 8 tracks of video, never more than 3 tracks of audio." or something like that. Then it might be easier. A LOT of understanding Vegas is the workflow. I've been using Forge since the day it hit 5" floppies. So the workflow is easy for me. I've been using ACID since the when the Alpha had a happy smiley face (like an acid tab) as the opening graphic. So the workflow is familiar to me. But I can see how someone not initiated in Vegas work structure could have some of these problems. BTW, for slugs, I use INSERT EMPTY MEDIA rather than using a prebuilt color section. I also often use titles as slugs, allowing me to name the slug with the title info, then use the TAKES feature to insert video to the slug.

oh shoot. I forgot I capture VHS and use track motion to crop out the junk on the bottom of the screen. that's why i always have everything pre-rendered. :) It was playing at 29.97 fps and didn't think that it would need to be re-renderd. They should add in the option menu choices on what you wnt to pre-render. :)

I always thought Vegas requires MORE thought because it has more options then other NLE's. When I first started using it i was lost. It just took some getting used to when I converted from Premiere 6.

RE: Vitman D

>>>I wonder if some of your problems have to do with your machine's setup, and how much regular maintenance you put it through -- do you defrag often enough, have enough RAM, fast enough drives, etc. ?<<<

The ones i mentioned - no. They are VV issues. Black frames being inerted onto the timeline would not have anything to do with anything other than the software. Same goes for everything I said. Hey - if simply defraging my hard drives (Which I do do) could give me full EDL support in VV I would do it every week. And if buying more RAM would allow for "insert" edit buttons and "in" and "out" points I would do that as well. The things I mention aren't really OS/CPU/System type issues. I am not talking about render times, "real time" playback, Effects pre-render and so on - I am really only talking about editing issues and how VV does them (or doesn't in cases like EDL - but VV never claimed to have EDL support so it is only something I would like to see added)

RE: Spot

Overall I think VV is great for Audio..I say this time and time again and it was really what first brought me over to try it. I have used Sound Forge since version...un..I dunno..2? I don't remember now but I remember checking it ouy because it was the only thing out there that worked on a track level like I was used to with Studio 16. (Anyone else here remember that? Use that? I always wished it would have been ported over to PC) At the time I wished Sound Forge had multi tracks and could be used for mixing a film. (Like Studio 16) So workflow wise - audio wise - yeah, it makes sense to me. (Except the track issues - they are starting to bother me) I started using VV at version 2 - at least toying with it at that time. I loved the ideas it had but at the time there wasn't anything I could really use it for. I did some web stuff but it wasn't until version 3 I really started using it.

The black frame issue doesn't happen to just me, and it never happened to me until i started doing a long form project and dropped in pre-rendered media. When I went to post I found many others having the same sort of issues. I can not speak for anyone else on exaclty how it happens but the first time it happened to me I dropped 6 or 7 files onto the timeline at one time - VV putting them is the correct order based on how I had labeled them (Part1.avi, Part2.avi, etc) but VV also put spaces in between. So ok, technically VV did not add a "black frame" but rather added spaces, or more directly - VV did not butt up the cuts. There is also a real black frame issue that some people have had during renders and I have not gotten that one as of yet - at least not as they have described it...the "every 88 frames" thing. In any case these "spaces" in between cuts do render as "black frames" and unless you zoom in on the time line you would not see these spaces. Also what i am cutting is "dark' in the sense most of takes place at night or in low light (yeah - a horror action film ala "blade" - don't ask) so it is not as easy to see a single black frame zip past.

As for the "thinking" part - that is just my take on what VV does. Even you say "If a track header/track is not selected, then Vegas inserts media to a new track." and to me that is thinking to a large degree. Yes this makes sense to people who just want to toss things onto the timeline - it is fast and a time saver. Except that is exactly why I am starting to dislike it. I want to, on the one hand, drag media onto track 1 but VV might decide track 4 is better, or it might even decide to create a new track and add a new Track 1 for it. I fully agree with what you say ins your comment of "I do wish that this were a little different, in that I'd like to be able to add all audio to one track for instance, and then add video to multiple tracks." Exactly what I was saying as well, but differently. (As you mention audio is always placed under the video and that in itself is a slight issue because If I have track 1 as video only and track 2 as video with track 3 being audio if I am worried about editing I may not pay attention to the fact VV has now created a new track 1 and track 2 (Or track 2 and 3 or 4 and 5 - whatever) It has happened - I will be cutting way and suddely find audio where video was. Last night I found myself deleting tracks over and over again wondering "where the hell did this audio track come from?" Another problem is also that if VV adds new tracks but you decide you don't like that shot - the tracks will still be there after you have removed, or simply moved to another track, those cuts)

Slug wise I either do it by inserting empty media or by simple making a copy of that "slug" and creating a new copy where I want it. The media part isn't the issue - it is the placing it on the timeline and have everything ripple, or not ripple correctly, that is.

(For those who still don't get it - 1,2,3,4 with an inserted slug going where "3" is might result in either 1,2,3/4 or 1,2,4,3,4 or 1,2,3,2, long blank space created by ripple edit, 4. If it all works as it should be you have 1,2,4 becoming 1,2,3,4)

RE: DuncanS

>>> Instead if drag and drop try the technique of using the Trimmer <<<

The trimmer doesn't really do it for me, not just in VV but in any I have used. It isn't that I can't use it, I just would rather edit another way. Now I really only bring up the concept of "insert" so much because there isn't just, in my eyes, a simple way to do it in VV. In theory it is simple, but as I have said, to me what is simple is selecting an in and out point and than putting that media onto the timeline at a set "in" point. I can only do one of those things in the trimmer. But even that isn't the heart of my issue - it is the fact that you really have to place the cursor at a location to be an "in" point on the timeline and if you happen to not have it exactly in the correct place and haven't selected a track you end up with an edit where you didn't want one and perhaps even a new track with that media on it. (Which is ok if you want a new track) And beyond that at times you will get these black frames/empty spaces. My concept is to do for the video side what is already ion the audio side - "punch in" type buttons. If I record audio directly to the VV timeline I can select what track I want it to go on and "arm" that track - in other words all I have to do is push a button to insert audio on that track. So everyone more or less finds that easy and doesn't complain but most of the time when I bring up the buttons for video as it would relate to "insert", well everyone sort of freaks out. (most common reply I have seen is to do the "Right Click Alt Drag" dance which to me is more complicated than simply pushing a button on the track you want) I see this as making it even easier to "insert" not only video but also audio...you want all audio on one track and have video go onto other set tracks - simple - select Video track 1 and Audio track 2. For the next insert, or even edit if need be, select Video track 3 and audio track 2. All you have to do in push that button to activate those tracks. Now setting the in and out points - well, that would still be an issue.

RE: risce1

>>>Of course every problem you had is strictly a Vegas problem, no system problems,no human error problems<<<

If you read my post and edit often you will more than likely find that these are software issues more than editor issues. And by "issue" I mean how the software handles certian things. For example I mention EDL support a lot - this has nothing to do with anyones OS, Hard Drives, Firewire, CPU, RAM and so on - lack of full EDL support is a SoFo, now Sony, choice. Not having a play and record type editing set up is also a SoFo/Sony choice. The issues I brought up are software issues - the black frame subject seems to have been around for a while now and I highly doubt that every single person who has experianced this is running the exact same set up or even doing the exact same thing on the timeline. Obviously if it was that easy to do every person would have the same problem and this issue would have been solved long ago. The way VV handles "inserts" is just that - SoFo/Sony made a choice. I bring up the fact that, for me, it is counter productive. Same goes for other issues that end up taking more time than need be. Clearly I did not post saying "How come I only get 1 fps playback?? I have a P2 running at 200 Mhz and have 128 megs RAM - man VV sucks!! By the way I new to editing, what is the best workflow?" No-that would clearly warrent a comment such as "Of course every problem you had is strictly a Vegas problem, no system problems,no human error problems."

RE: PTT comments.

I really only use PTT now for doing what I am doing - dumping off "work prints" to tape so the Producer and Director can see what is going on. When this film is locked I will render out everything and output via the VV capture mod. I will than use that render as the video track for doing the sound design and final mix. I know VV can handle the mixes and pre mixes fine - what I am worried about is the actual track editing. I am having second thoughts because, as I pointed out, this is an action film and I am seeing all these little audio cuts go out of sync because VV is doing something weird. (Yes I will have the ripple function turned off for audio editing but I won't be able to control audio tracks as I would like as far as "inserts" go)

The 99% opacity thing happened somewhere near the end because at one point my playback dropped to about 7 fps and output went to "Frame recompressed" mode. it did not raise an eyebrow too much at first because there were some little comp/temp effects things going on there. It wasn't until I hit the PTT that something wasn't correct. I would never have thought to look at the opacity because I don't use it, at least not in this project. I also rarely, last night not at all, use the mouse wheel to control playback or volume or opacity. The reason it stood out more when I saw what it was is because there have been posts about the same thing made in the past.

Well....just like I don't care for blondes, maybe Vegas isn't for you. I don't eat vegetables either, and yet many friends abhor the thought of meat. So it may well be that some other tool fits your particular workflow. Vegas sure as heck isn't the only editor out there. I still do some tasks in other NLE's myself, and you know I'm a Vegas-ite. (haven't drunk the Koolaid yet, but close)
I'm wondering if the black frames you are seeing, as well as some other folks, are hitting on a half field at the top of a render, due to frames not being quantized.
Vegas is a great video tool, I've done many broadcast and docco projects, as well as used it to contribute pieces of larger projects. The worlds first HD PSA was done by our crew in Vegas nearly a year ago. I'm not willing to compromise my reputation for a free copy of 600.00 software; I use Vegas because it fits my workflow. And my workflow is regularly more than 12 to 18 tracks of vid, and nearly as many audio tracks with sweetening. My audio projects in Vegas might be as small as 32 tracks if I'm lucky. Usually they are more. The Olympic broadcast projects we did were up to 104 tracks of Vegas. The Tenors projects were as many as 18 captured live, with only a DAT as a safety net.
The thing that makes Vegas great is it treats video exactly the same way as it does audio. It's all the exact same thing; Data. Just a higher bitrate, that's all.

You know, i just thought of something on the "black fame" issue.

When I work in Premiere at work I use a MAtrox RT2500 card. If I would cut some clips at just the right spot, the computer would show a black frame, but on the preview monitor it shows only 1/2 the fields (upper or lower). When I would render it there was no black frame though. The video was as it should be.

Filmy, could this of been your problem? Did you happen to render out some of the black frame stuff to see what it looks like?

Filmy,
I can't say I had the same problems that you are having. I came from an Avid Symphony and a Componant D1 suite. I have Dicreet Edit 6. Premiere, FCP 3 and Vegas. I opt for V4 99% of the time. I have done long format for some time- tons of 30 minute TV shows, several 1hour Corporate Videos, 90 minute videos and a ton from 5 minutes to 40. I usually have 7 or 8 video layers and close to the same for audio. I have never had black frames appear in any of these. I even had a several areas where I did 3 frame edits for several seconds building fast cut history sequences to 12 image builds. I have put V4 thru many tough edits and it has done just fine- maybe I'm lucky on that and should knock on wood so to speak. The only issues I have ever had were extremely large frame composites with many effects and gaussian blurs- running into memory issues. This has been in the works with V4 staff and Boxx Technology and has not been entirely resolved yet. As far as ripple edits causing problems- never, black frames- never, assigning new audio tracks- never unles I put an AV track in a location where there is only Video tracks above and below- V4 adds a new audio track to keep them together- but I have the option to move the audio to a track with the rest of the SOT and delete the new audio track. I dont really use the PTT function fron the timeline. I typically render DV or uncompressed depending on the project and source materials- then use the capture/print engine. The pre render only renders my FX unless I am in the uncompressed mode- it never pre renders untouched DV footage. I have seen the opacity problem- that happens when I use the arrow keys on the timeline. As someone else stated- focus is touchy and you have to make sure you are on the timeline or you can create an opacity change inadvertanly. I learned that one the hard way. Like you, I have been editing on a "professional" level for 20 years (whatever that means) and I have found V4 an awesome tool- it's amazing what you can do with this low cost product- simply amazing!
Okay- sorry, I'll quit now...but I really wish I could help- I know how frustrating Editing can be- but V4 has never produced the issues you have mentioned. Come to think of it...I did have an issue with a program when they launched upgrades. It was the early Quantel Henry..they kept upgrading to V4, V6, V8 and it caused me tons of grief- and that was a $500K system! So what I am saying is- all systems have their quirks and you learn to work around most of them...thats my 2 cents - for what it's worth....

Can the "black fame" problem happens due to some difference between the audio and video length, lets say the audio is half a frame longer. When insertinf a clip, the clip can be alligned to the audio with some difference. But as we snap to frame, it will be actually added at the wrong frame?

This can also explain the strange ripple behaviour, as some clips will not be moved due to the fact that they starts half a frame before the insertion?

Udi

Just an FYI - the HappyFriar made a post with a possible solution but I do not think the half frame/field issue in my issue. My response in the thread is here.

I wanted to say that in film is it easy to see the frame line - that is where you cut. In video it can throw a person off a bit because you want to cut one frame "before" what you see, not one frame "after". This, I think, is what some of the responses are based on. The easy way I can think to explain this is in film you would have frames - 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 - so you will go through and find your edit point - mark with a grease pencil and than move it over to the edit block. You than make your cut at that frame, say frame 6. On video however you get something a bit different - you may be looking at frame 6 but if you cut "after" frame 6 you may be cutting "at" frame 7. It also depends on if the NLE is showing you one frame or if you are seeing one field. These frame numbers also get translated so you get 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 as 1a,1b,2a,2b,3a,3b and so on. In progressive you could indeed still get 1,2,3,4,5, etc but the way you edit either would still be the same. the idea is sort of like this: do you cut "before" the frame you want or "after" the frame you want? This is the tricky part - in the black frame during render idea if you "cut" after frame 9 you would more than likely get a black frame because you are telling it to render a frame 10 - which does not exist. If you "cut" before frame 9 you will not get a blank frame because you have information for frame 9. Does that make sense? It does to me but I can see this in my head - with no diagrams/pictures to show I am not alway sure what I say makes sense to someone reading it. (Hey I edit, not write. LOL!) Another way you look at this is time based - say you have a clip that runs 00:00:12:12 and you want to re-render the entire clip. Logic would say to render out 12 seconds and 12 frames. So you would enter a render length of 00:00:12;12 but what you would actually get is 12 second 13 frames. You need to do a minus one to get the exact time - 00:00:12:11 would equal 00:00:12:12. Most of the time you don't edit that way but you may have to render out just one scene and that is what is going on - the end point is always the "frame before" and the in point is always the "frame after."

Now that confused a great deal of you I am sure. But in any case - my "black frame" issue is not based on the actual edit - it is based on the timeline and "blank spaces" in between the actual edits and those "blank spaces" translate to "black frames" during playback. Come to think about it - it is sort of like VV is adding that "frame after" when it shoudln't. Sort of like I drop a piece of media onto the timeline that is 00:00:12:12 long and VV is actually putting 00:00:12:12 on the timeline and not 00:00:12:11...thusly you get a "blank space." Hmmm...hey Sonic/SoFoDennis and SoFo/SonnicEPM - could that be happening?

>>>As far as ripple edits causing problems- never, black frames- never, assigning new audio tracks- never unles I put an AV track in a location where there is only Video tracks above and below- V4 adds a new audio track to keep them together- but I have the option to move the audio to a track with the rest of the SOT and delete the new audio track.<<<

As far as the black frame/empty space issue - My wife just bought a car. The little RPM meter sticks. She has had it back to the dealer two times but when they look at it they can not get it to stick so they can't fix it. So my wife has decidied to just keep driving it until it sticks for good and then bring it back in. Point is as I said not everyone gets this "black frame/empty space" problem and not everyone who does get is doing the exact same thing. If it were that obvious and easy to reproduce it would have been something everyone would have been able to reproduce. Keep in mind I also said I never had this happen until about a month ago and I found others having the same exact sort of issue. I have also had VV 4 crash on me - but it has only happened about 3 times and it only happened when importing large amounts of media at once...I don't do that anymore and VV has never crashed again.

The ripple feature has always worked perfect for you? And the tracks as well? How do you, this is a serious question, "assign" tracks and lock off all the others? Also how do you stop VV from automaticly adding tracks? And for ripple as it related to insert editing - how do you 1> set you in point on the record side? 2> manage to place your audio and video on the correct tracks 3> Prevent these weird off center inserts? (Again - serious questions, not trying to be ironic. Just this is what my issue(s) are and you seem to be chugging along with not one problem for doing insert edits and adding tracks and so forth. I just want to know where these hidden switches/buttons are to allow you to do this)

I use key shortcuts for most everything. Perhaps that's why I don't have issues, I couldn't say. Snapping is nearly always on, as is quantize to frames. Slugs are created using generated media, usually using text media so I don't have to drop a marker for a slug to remind my slow brain what I put the slug there for. But for me, the shortcuts are pretty much auto, cuz many of them have been there since Forge 3.0

I use key shortcuts for most everything. Perhaps that's why I don't have issues, I couldn't say. Snapping is nearly always on, as is quantize to frames. Slugs are created using generated media, usually using text media so I don't have to drop a marker for a slug to remind my slow brain what I put the slug there for. But for me, the shortcuts are pretty much auto, cuz many of them have been there since Forge 3.0
Just the new keyboard for Vegas, looking forward to installing it and seeing if my edit speed changes at all.

My comment about sub-frame times is based on audio vs. video times. Not the cut point.

If for some reason, and someone mentioned that in many cases, your audio and video length are not the same.
For example video end on frame 10, audio end at frame 10.5.
When you place your cursor on the cut, the cursor snap to the end of the events - either to the 10 frame (video) or the 10.5 point (audio). Lets take the second case - the cursor is actually at 10.5 frames - you can not see it in the time refference or on the TL.

When you insert a clip at this place, the clip is to be inserted at 10.5 frame, but is is snapped to the frame boindry - which is 11 - and now you have a blak frame at the cut point. Nothing to do with cut or edit - only a simple insert.

When you insert multiple clips, it works in the same way, a clip is added, the cursor moves to the end of the clip and the next clip is added. I suspect that if one of the clips havd a longer audio - the next clip will be added after the audio and you will have black frames between such clips.

I don't have a solution, but a script to "remove" a single frame gap between video clips can be written - simplfy the removal of those.

Udi


Udi

I've done several long form projects (currently working on a 90+ minute vid) and have not had the problems filmy describes. I will admit to a few black frames between cuts. Zooming in on the timeline does reveal a small space between the clips. Double-clicking the space shows a duration of 00:00. However it most certainly IS a space. (And Sony should fix the problem ASAP as it's a time-waster.) My solution: Double-clicking the space and hitting DELETE pulls the show up. (Ripple on, of course.)

Filmy sounds like he's having trouble with the conventions of Vegas rather than bugs within.