Thanks for your reply. Specifically, I am wondering if there is a way to use Avid's DNxHD codec in Vegas.

"Avid DNxHD technology is based on the MXF standard, ensuring that media can be exchanged with any other MXF-compliant system. In addition, the source code for the Avid DNxHD codec is licensable free of charge, available to any user who wants to compile it on any platform. Now users and developers can be confident that media files will always be accessible - with or without Avid equipment."

http://www.avid.com/dnxhd/index.asp

I would like to move projects between Vegas and Avid Express Pro and it seems that using DNxHD would help in that regard.

Thanks for your help.

Avid's variant of MXF doesn't work in Vegas.

One of both of Quicktime DNxHD or AVI DNxHD will work in Vegas. I can't remember anyone.

2- It may or may not be that an AAF export from Vegas will open up in Xpress Pro... though I think the media wrappers might be incompatible...?

In any case, moving projects between different NLEs generally has a lot of issues... I would try to avoid it if you can.

Glenn,

Ideally, I would love to be able to switch back and forth between Vegas and Avid.

But, at a bare minimum, I need to be able to provide an Avid version of my Vegas project.

Here in Los Angeles, I'm finding that "Avid" is still what many people want to hear, Avid files are regularly requested and I'm being asked "Have you opened this up in Avid?"

Since I have both progs, I intend to use Vegas as much as I can, and then import the file into Avid. I can see how it looks in Avid, make any needed changes, and supply an Avid file to those who want one.

This way I can look someone in the eye and say "Yes I've viewed it in Avid. Yes I have an Avid file."

So what would you suggest as the best way to perfom a one-time Vegas to Avid project transfer?

Er... what exactly do you mean by Avid file?

A- A PROJECT file, with cuts and dissolves. And reel metadata.

And effects settings like pan/crop...?

If you need this, just get an Avid system IMO.

B- A rendered file that will open in Avid.

C- An EDL that can be used to online a project in Avid... or any other online editing system.

Glenn,

Thanks for replying. You've nailed the confusion that I'm up against here when talking to investors and colaborators.

I am working on a project that might wind up in post production facility. When I tell people I'm using Vegas, I'm told something along the lines of "Okay, but you know that all the big post houses use Avid, so be sure your work opens up well in Avid."

So my options seem to be:

1) Create an Avid project file from my Vegas project. All the cuts will, dissolves etc. would be done in Vegas. It would essentially be a Vegas project or rendered file imported into XPress Pro--which I do have--and saved as an Avid project. (Your choice A.)

2) Create a rendered file from my Vegas project that will open in Avid, but not bother saving it as an Avid project. (Your choice B.)

Thank you.

Ah, you meant MXF file format rather than MFX plugins. I'm mainly an audio person so this is out of my area of expertise but there are plenty of people here who know about these things and I'm sure one or more of them will answer you.

Mark

Mark,

Actually I meant both. Avid's DHxHD is an MFX pulgin that I wanted to try using in Vegas, but it seems like that's not an option.

Alternatively, I'm looking for the best way to present an essentially finished Vegas project for further work in Avid.

Thanks.

MFX is not the same thing as MXF.

MXF is a media wrapper... like Quicktime and AVI (and Ogg). It can contain DNxHD essence / video material encoded with the DNxHD codec. So can Quicktime and AVI.

There are different variations on the format. Vegas and Avid use different variations / don't understand each other's variations.

I'm looking for the best way to present an essentially finished Vegas project for further work in Avid.

Could you provide more details as to what you're trying to do?

To extrapolate from my own experience...
--If you are using two different NLEs, it is usually because you do your offline edit on one system and your online edit on another system.

--You might go to an online system so that you can capture your material at high quality (ideally uncompressed). Online systems may also be good at creating motion graphics, color correction, and some special effects / compositing tasks. Sort of like After Effects, but much faster (for FCP onlines, you'd actually pair it up with AE or a similar app). Online editing facilities can also handle the technical aspects of creating a broadcast master.

--For online editing, Avid (Symphony and Nitris) is not the only NLE used for that purpose. Flame, Inferno (commercials), Quantel iQ, Mistika, Final Cut Pro, etc. are other systems used for that purpose.

--Online editing generally runs from a few hundred to several hundred dollars per hour. More expensive suites might go in the $1,000/hour range. Those online suites are mainly used for commercials and broadcast (e.g. TV series). They do not make sense for industrial, corporate work.

--If you online in a non-Avid system, you would use an EDL to transfer your project. Cuts and dissolves carry over. Effects do NOT carry over. You make paper/electronic notes as to what effects should be re-created in the online edit, and send a copy of your offline edit as a reference. Vegas should be able to generate a compatible EDL via *scripting*, though this is not officially supported anymore.

--If offlining and onlining on an Avid (using Symphony for the online), most of your effects should carry over(?). I'm not sure about Nitris. If the Avids are different versions, there may be some snags?
--You might save a small amount of time by doing that. The effects coming in were probably very rough anyways, and will be tweaked... so you're almost re-creating them anyways... which is similar to the EDL workflow.
**I don't have much Avid experience so this is just my guess/extrapolation of what I know.

When I tell people I'm using Vegas, I'm told something along the lines of "Okay, but you know that all the big post houses use Avid, so be sure your work opens up well in Avid."
A- An EDL from Vegas should work in Avid or other online editing apps.
B- Does your project require online editing? Are you delivering for broadcast?

Glenn,

Thank you very much for your reply.

I am new to this world, but have come up with an idea for a documentary that has generated interest (how long that will last...?).

I am trying to make sure that my workflow will work well if the documentary actually gets theatrically released &/or broadcasted. (I know I will be submitting it to festivals.)

Along this line, I have decided to record in 24-bit sound with good equipment. And have contacted a film out company, DVFilm, about doing a film test.

While I'm new to both Xpress Pro and Vegas (got the VASST DVD's 1-7), I need to decide which will be my primary editing platform.

I feel more comfortable with Vegas. So my plan has been to use Vegas for the lion's share fo the work and "bring the project into Xpress Pro" for my final offline edits and fixing any edits that didn't come over well (or at all). From reading yours and other posts and threads, I imagine this would entail importing a Vegas EDL into Avid Xpress Pro.

The Avid project would be provided to the finishing house for them to do whatever online edits that they need to.

However, it seems like this might not be a feasable or optimal soulution.

Along this line, I have decided to record in 24-bit sound with good equipment.
If you record double system, there might be some workflow/sync issues to watch for. I think most docs just record straight into the camera... and I think in many situations there is little to gain from 24-bit since the noise floor will be limited by your surroundings / background noise.

2- You might want to check out Victor Milt's DVD Director/Cameraman since he also did a doc somewhat along the lines of what you're doing. The DVD shows you the process of how he put it together. Vic put it onto the film festival circuit, and now I think he's working on a longer version for broadcast.

3- You don't need to bring the project into Xpress Pro.

If you plan on bringing your material into an online suite:
A- Some HDV formats may not necessarily online easily. If the online system needs to bring material in over HD-SDI, then the HDV signal needs to be converted to HD-SDI with deck control.
B- You need to make the EDL correctly. Basically, it should be formatted such that you could give the EDL to yourself and re-create the project. Watch out for reel names limited to 8 characters, anything that is not on tape needs to be supplied to the online facility (ideally trasnfer to tape, or provide image files in a compatible format).
C- Timecode breaks should be indicated (put a paper note along with the tape); reels should be named uniquely and with the 8 character limit in mind.
A lot of offline editors don't create an EDL correctly the first time around.

D- Along with the EDL + media files (e.g. still images), you need to create a cutting copy / video reference of your offline edit. It should have timecode to indicate when the program starts (e.g. use the timecode generator, and make sure program start lines up with 01:00:00.00). It is nice to have timecode burns at the mediaFX level indicating the tape timecode... though a lot of offline editors omit this.

Include notes (paper or electronic) indicating effects. The person doing the online conform will read them and re-create your effects in the online project. This includes effects which should be applied (e.g. logos you need to blur out).

As far as generating the EDL... it should be pretty much the same between Vegas and Avid. The main difference is that Avid editors tend to know what they're doing... but getting Avid won't help you.

4- IMO, the offline/online approach doesn't make sense for every project.

The major advantage it has (for you) is that the online facility is specialized at what they do. The editor will know how to polish your piece, fixing problems (e.g. redo-ing chroma key, removing logos, stabilizing footage) and doing color correction. They will be good at making sure your master is technically sound (e.g. legal levels). You could theoretically do it yourself... but most editors generally tend not to be masters of all trades. (Jack of all trades usually means master of none.) Though online editing is somewhat mechanical and you could learn it if you put enough time into it. The end results are mostly the same.

The downside to going with an online editing facility is that it's expensive. It's fast, it's good (as long as you spend enough time), but it is not cheap. There is also time wasted conforming a project into the online system... it will likely be at least several hours.

If you are generating an edit for film festivals, you will likely polish your piece yourself... so you've already done most of what would be done in an online edit.

5- Most film festivals will screen HD (though it will likely be a specific format like HDCAM). It likely makes more sense than going out to 35mm film.