Outstanding tut, Musicvid! Impressive results, to say the least. I plan on getting a GPH3 Black in the (hopefully) near future. And, (again hopefully) some of their "reported" issues are resolved by firmware updates.. but I digress..

In Step 7 you say "Cineform has another advantage in Vegas, in that it was designed to play smoothly on the timeline, much better than native AVC/MP4 from your camera." Is that due to the AVI intermediate format itself or something else in the codec?


Cheers!

Cineform makes efficient use of wavelet compression. Cineform has been tweaked for Vegas timeline performance going back years. David Newman is a friend of Vegas.

AVC is good for acquisition and streaming, but terrible for editing because unpacking eats up huge amounts of system resources. I can get twice the preview fps with Cineform as I can with native AVC.

...working with some test clips now...

Question: Did/do you keep the Quality setting in GPCS Advanced settings at "Medium"?

thanks!

"Question: Did/do you keep the Quality setting in GPCS Advanced settings at "Medium"?"

Yes.
High quality could easily look too grainy.

Ahh. Makes sense. Thanks!


In GPCS, do you use the "Step 2 EDIT" functions at all? It seems to only output .mp4 and is where the ProTune settings are applied..

Haven't played with them.

Yeah. I'm getting my hands dirty as well..

I noticed that at this link: http://support.cineform.com/entries/515575-Sony-Vegas-colors-look-washed-out-

re., Vegas, that the last step is to "remove the Studio RGB -> Computer RGB filter before exporting.

This is the opposite filter that you previously recommended. Are we even talking about the same process here? Or is that just for accurate color correction...and I'm not eve sure if they are referring to the original MP4 or intermediate files...

We are talking about exactly the same thing.

One can add the Computer RGB filter while editing, then remove it before rendering;

--or--

One can edit to suit in native Vegas RGB space, then apply the Studio RGB filter just before rendering.

I choose and teach the latter method to Movie Studio users, for a number of good reasons I won't elaborate again here.
The WYSIWYG and Failsafe method for VMS users is outlined in steps 8a and 8b above.

Although written mainly for Vegas->Youtube production, there is an abundance of discussion of the levels issue in Vegas here:
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=766699

-- and here --

http://www.jazzythedog.com/testing/DNxHD/HD-Guide.aspx

-- and here --

http://www.bubblevision.com/underwater-video/YouTube-Vimeo-levels-fix.htm

I'm a bit confused. I have GPH3B and I've used it to make some very nice looking videos.

This past weekend, I turned on Protune and Sony Vegas Movie Studio Platinum read in the MP4 files just fine. Editing was normal, with no slowness.

Issue is, after rendering Internet HD (MP4) video, as I normally do, the video looks blurry. More so than other videos I've made with my GPH3B..

Does this have something to do with Protune turned on? And I did not go thru the steps above with Cineform, I just directly opened the MP4's from my GPH3B.

Thanks!

"This past weekend, I turned on Protune"

I wouldn't do that; it's unnecessary and involves a substantial learning curve in order to understand and get right.

You're not able to do the kind of correcting or compositing in Movie Studio that would benefit in the least from high bit, S-log source.
Vegas Movie Studio supports 8-bit 2.2 Gamma projects, only!

What you are calling "blurry" is undoubtedly the flattened gamma from handling the video incorrectly. Start and stick with 8-bit 4:2:2.

Using Protune reduces sharpening and noise reduction in camera significantly. The lower sharpness level of protune files is to reduce aliasing and moire that often occurs on fine patterns and horizontal lines in a scene.

Protune is quite advantageous if you want to cut your gopro footage with other higher end cameras. It encodes at 45 mbps, almost triple the standard bit rate. There's a lot more color information available for grading, especially when there is a lot of motion in a scene.

The flatter profile with much less contrast via a slight s-shaped gamma curve allows for significantly more latitude in color grading to match other camera's.

While VMS isn't the optimum tool for handling s-shaped gamma curves, a simple s-shaped color curves FX to the RGB channels in VMS does a pretty good job. It just doesn't have as much latitude that the protune clip allows on higher end editors where you can adjust the gamma curve separate from the RGB curves.

I think VMS does a pretty good job with protune files and definitely is nice change from the baked in, super sharp look of traditional gopro footage.

Cheers,
Pete

Thanks for the reply's.. I'll steer away from ProTune.

I started using it mainly because my GPH3B does not seem to manage white balancing in the snow as well as my original GP did. So for nearly every snow video, I must use Sony's White Balance Corrector and it does the trick.

When you turn on Protune in your GPH3B, it allows you to turn off AWB and select the color temp. Which seemed to work! But video was blurry as noted above!

Thanks again,

Jayson

Is there no way to use manual WB without turning on ProTune?
That seems like an oversight on GoPro's part.

I agree, the auto WB in snow is not good, it overcompensates. See the two untreated images above, which I "assume" were auto WB. Meh.

In the current version, there is no way to set AWB w/o using ProTune.

And sadly there is no way recoring with higher bitrate without protune :( This would be also good.

I just purchased a GoPro Hero 3 Black & am totally perplexed by the output using Protune & Cineform Studio.

Background: I’m using a PC, Win 7, & calibrated Eizo monitor. I’m also proficient with Photoshop, color management, working space, etc. In terms of video – I’m new to it – but in playing around with the three software packages I have (CineForm Studio, Sony Movie Studio 12, Adobe Premier Elements 10), it seems they are “beginner” programs & I’m flying blind in terms of color working space, clipping levels, & so on.

Here’s the issue: I’m trying to compare three modes, all at 1080, 60fps, & widest angle. I’m outdoors in bright sun with areas of shade:

OUT OF CAMERA WITH PROTUNE OFF:

When view this file in directly in Window Media Player, I see the usual GoPro “look” which is oversaturated & with blown highlights. If I bring this file into Movie Studio, the image in the preview pane looks a little flatter than what I see in Media Player, but not what I’d consider a major difference. Must be a somewhat different color space. Everything is working as I’d expect.

PROTUNE ON, AUTO WHITE BALANCE:

When view this file in directly in Window Media Player, I see a flatter image than with Protune off. If I convert this file in CineForm & look at the resulting .avi file in Media Player, I’m seeing increased contrast & saturation over the out of camera file. CineForm seems to be applying a curve change that I have no control over. It seems I’m now losing some of the editing room if I bring the CineForm-converted file into my NLE.

PROTUNE ON, WITH CAMERA RAW WHITE BALANCE:

When view this file in directly in Window Media Player, I see a MUCH FLATTER image. I’m not sure why there would be so much difference between this & auto white balance. It seems that the so-called Camera Raw white balance is more than just white balance – it must also include completely different curve set. In terms of what I’m accustomed to in photography & my old “scan it flat” film-to-digital days, this seems like the ideal output to edit from to get the look I like.

Here’s the catch; if I take the camera raw file & convert it in CineForm, the resulting file is no longer so flat. Dang it! The converted .avi file should be easier to edit with in my NLE, but what’s the point if it’s no longer flat? CineForm seem to re-apply the GoPro look when it converts!

Interestingly, if I take the converted file & EDIT in CineForm clicking the “none” button, the preview image becomes flatter again. But I don’t think I should be editing in CineForm…I should be making my corrections & integrating with other files in my NLE.

So I’m confused. When do you use Protune with auto white balance vs camera raw? (I really don't see the point of Protune with auto white balance.) What’s CineForm doing to the file when you convert? How do I keep it flat for proper editing?

Thanks, Alan.

OUT OF CAMERA WITH PROTUNE OFF:
Vegas previews everything in RGB space, irrespective of source. That is what you are seeing.

PROTUNE ON, AUTO WHITE BALANCE:
Movie Studio doesn't have 10 bit project capability, nor s-log correction.
So even if you could come up with a set of curves to restore 2.2 gamma, there would be no advantage even then.
Cineform output is a compromise between flatline gamma (Protune) and overprocessed (GoPro). As mentioned, you are still confined to an 8 bit workspace, but you should find the Cineform easier to work with than either native GoPro or Protune.

PROTUNE ON, WITH CAMERA RAW WHITE BALANCE:
I saw some discussion of this on another forum, perhaps also on David Newman's blog. Sorry I can't point you toward them.

In summary:
--There is no point to ingesting native Protune in Movie Studio. Even if you could restore the curves, there is no advantage in doing so.
-- Cineform-converted Protune footage should be easier to work with than regular GoPro, but again just the fact that it is 10 bit 4:2:2 is of no advantage in Movie Studio.
-- GoPro typically occupies the full RGB color space, but the encoding is YUV. The generic correction to restore highlight and shadow detail is Computer RGB->Studio RGB.
-- Vegas Pro has 32 bit float projects and native s-log correction built in, so here is where Protune / Cineform are at their best, but only if you will be doing critical grading / colorizing work, say for cinematic release. Otherwise, you won't see any difference.

If you want to see what working with 10 bit source and compositing mode is like, Vegas Pro has a 30 day trial.

Hello All,

Thanks for the great discussion. I've been working with some hero 3 footage, 30 fps wide pro tune.

As described above, I bring the raw files into cineform studio, convert in step 1, change the preset to none, and then add sharpness. I'm not sure it's been explicitly mentioned that the avi file resulting from step 1 can be dropped into the Vegas Pro 12 timeline WITHOUT completing step 2. The changes applied in cineform to that file will then show up in Vegas. Also, those changes remain in effect even if cineform is closed.

If the intent is to render out of Vegas, is there any advantage in this workflow to completing step 2 and converting the file to mp4 (as opposed to rendering off the avi that results from step 1)?

I have some other questions about editing pro tune footage in Vegas Pro 12 with properties to 32 bit floating point (video levels). I'm using the 'better' method for uploading to youtube, but youtube is really mangling some footage shot from my car- lots of motion and fine detail. I'll post some samples in a bit!

Thanks,
JDubendorf

Here's a link to the footage I mentioned in the previous post:



Right off the bat, I realize it's not ideal- lots of motion, fine detail, variable light conditions, car vibration, etc.

Post-step 1 cineform avi's dropped into Vegas Pro 12 32 bit floating point (video levels) project. Sharpness applied in cineform (roughly equivalent with sharpness in protune preset), levels adjusted in Vegas (mostly with color curves at event level). Rendered to mp4 through handbrake using the 'better' method.

I'd appreciate an objective evaluation- is this about as good as I can expect from youtube (the mp4 from handbrake is obviously of noticeably higher quality)? Is there any chance that I can actually gain apparent quality by reducing sharpness (or adding some motion blur)? Any other ideas? Or is this pretty good quality considering the conditions- perhaps I've been staring at my screen for too long...

Thanks for your thoughts.

Looks fine, but a bit flat to me.
Did you use the Protune preset in Cineform Studio?

Hi musicvid10,

No, I didn't use the protune preset, only sharpening in cineform. To my eye, the protune preset looks much too 'gopro-ey.' In other words, I have trouble believing that's how the footage would look if I hadn't shot in protune to begin with- it almost looks like a parody of the gopro look!

Agreed- It is a bit flat. My main concern in this version was to conform the overall levels.

Perhaps my primary beef is with youtube- with detail & motion, I think it's inevitable you'll get compression artifacts no matter what!

Oh, I thought the blocking was on purpose. You're giving Youtube something it doesn't like. Maybe our tutorial will help:


Also post the MediaInfo properties for your rendered file that you uploaded to YT.

The Cineform Protune preset is not as bad as native GoPro. I've tested it.
But, since you have Vegas Pro 12, try the S-log correction and see if that gets you more pop without being excessive. The problem is taking flatline gamma from Protune and getting it to 2.2 display gamma without jumping through a lot of hoops.