More questions about Audio Selection menus

Robert W wrote on 7/1/2008, 4:50 AM
Ok, I have revised my requirements since I originally posted about making a Audio Selection menu for my music DVD. There will now be both an AC3 5.1 track and a AC3 2.0 track on the disc.

Due to the particular contents of the programme in the mix the matrixing process used to create Pro-Logic compatible mixes has a big detrimental effect on the audio when played in stereo. A decision had to be made between retaining Pro Logic compatibility or Stereo compatibility in the downmix of the 5.1 track. As we have a dedicated stereo mix already on the disc, we decided to be kind to remaining Pro-Logic customers and add meta-tags to cater to them.

However this means that I now need to add a menu between the "Play Concert" button and the actual programme to force the selection of the 5.1 or 2.0 mix.

I tested something like this in DVD Architect 4.5c a few months ago. I added the film twice to the menu and labelled one button "5.1 Mix" and the other "Stereo Mix" and used the properties to set the correct audio track. Unfortunately I found that the side effect of this was that instead of intelligently allocating the disc resources, DVD-architect added the entire video stream twice, which took me way over the available disc budget. Is there an alternative method to do this, or a template that automates it?

I am loathed to upgrade to 5.0 to see if it resolves this issue, as releasing just before the end of June says "rush!" and "alpha! to me, and I am too near the end of a project to switch to unproven software, especially when I am not far from going to press!

Cheers,

Rob

EDIT: Actually thinking about it, I need to force the selection before it even gets to the main menu, right after the copyright warning. This is because there is a chapter selection menu and the selection needs to impact that too. So is there a way I can just set up a screen with a couple of buttons that changes the default audio track for the whole disc?

Comments

TheHappyFriar wrote on 7/1/2008, 6:36 AM
i'm not sure as I don't have a surround sound system anymore, but I'm 99% sure that if a disc had surround only & I played back in stereo the system converted it for me. I'm also 99% sure that stereo = prologic on all cases I've seen/tried.

some DVD's I've seen force a stereo as the 1st audio track & want you to select surround (Stuart little & 5th element come to mind). Some would force surround (like Simpsons Movie) but always sounded fine in stereo. If you've got left/right hook ups from the DVD to your sound it will always work, never had an issue it hasn't. If you only have a digital connection or are having the system autodetect (prologic, stereo, 3 channel, surround) then you need to either manually change the system or the audio track on the player if you don't want it to use the default one. But if you have the system manually changed to stereo, surround, etc. it will use those appropriate. So if the disc is in stereo & the system is in surround, only the front two (three?) speakers put out audio. If you're in surround on the disc but only have the system in stereo (or a stereo system only, which most likely means you are using RCA red/white cables) it will do stereo/prologic only. Stereo only if there's no prologic available on the surround system or it's manually selected.
Robert W wrote on 7/1/2008, 7:35 AM
Hi. I am certain of my requirement here. I need to have a menu to force selection of the correct mix for the individual user and remove the possibility of a user trying to play the downmixed 5.1 track on a stereo only system.

This is because that the sonics of this particular 5.1 mix mean that it can not be downmixed to stereo with a Pro Logic matrix whilst retaining compatibility with plain stereo at the same time. The rear speakers need to remain phase coherent when collapsed into stereo, otherwise it obliterates a lot of the stereo mix and it sounds very strange.

The stereo mix is tailored to all stereo systems and sounds much better than the surround mix even when it is collapsed without Pro-Logic compatibility. It also necessary to include extra rides on crowd noise etc. in the Stereo mix which sound very strange and unrealistic in the downmixed 5.1 mix.

So, can anybody tell me how to make one of these menus that set the track to be used right after the copyright message?

Cheers,

Rob,
MPM wrote on 7/1/2008, 9:09 AM
I’m not 100% sure what you want your end result to be, so please take this *shotgun* approach with a grain of salt...

Normally you’d just add a second audio track to the video, and all switching would be done between tracks, not titles. If you want 2 titles, each with the same video but different audio tracks, there *may* be a way to do it without including the video twice, but DVDA won’t do it & I’ve never seen it done on any DVD. I’m pretty sure what you’d have to do would be to play with the actual disc structure, so the VOBs for the second VTS didn’t include the video file itself, but rather pointers to the original video file in the first set of VOBs... If you’ve run Vista or Linux it’s along the same lines as folder/file aliasing, where everything sees a file or folder, but it’s really just a shortcut to another file or folder somewhere else. I don’t think it’d be more complicated that the current stuff they use for copy protection, but you’re likely looking at buying some pretty hi/top end software.

Running 2 audio tracks is easy enough, though you’re often at the mercy of the DVD player when it comes to the default track, regardless how you set the DVD. If you have a stereo & 5.1 mix, the player may automatically choose 1 or the other, especially software players on a PC. You may be able to confuse the way that works though by setting the 2 audio tracks to different languages, or by setting one to commentary - those are just tags that don’t matter to playback, & the only side effect would be the info the player displays on screen when switching tracks with the remote, *if* you allow switching with the remote.

You can set the default audio for the DVD in the project properties, which can be over-ridden by the player. You can try attaching a simple script setting the audio track to the first menu, or attach it to a dummy menu or video that plays first (or your copyright notice), or you can set a script to auto-play when the DVD’s inserted in the player. The difference between the methods is when it occurs in playback - a first run script will only play when the DVD’s inserted, & may set the audio before the player does (I’m not sure), defeating your purpose. If you attached a script (setting audio) to a dummy video [a black mpg2 lasting a few seconds], with the end action of going to whatever menu, viewers could access the main menu (or a duplicate) without resetting audio. A dummy menu would work the same way - the main difference would be responsiveness if you wanted to play the script from the end of your video title.... menus in DVDA are at the beginning & in the Title Domain, while your dummy title can be almost anywhere, though it takes tricks to locate it precisely in DVDA.

Another approach might be to carefully structure the viewer’s path thru the DVD. To do that you’d basically have duplicate sets of menus, and the buttons would set the default audio... you could have a 5.1 version of everything & a stereo version. The tricky part is designing where & how you want to switch between the 2, accounting for if you want the viewer to be able to switch using the remote, that sort of thing.

On a retail DVD they would likely query the player’s audio track variable (one of the SPRMs), and/or set another type of variable for the DVD (GPRM) whenever the audio was switched. Those values would then control what the viewer saw & in this case heard. They’d still use the 2 methods I’ve sketched out, maybe a combo of the 2, but this added layer of complexity would ideally make sure it worked smoothly in most all situations.
Robert W wrote on 7/1/2008, 10:25 AM
Thanks for your response MPM, however I think there is still some misunderstanding,. I shall provide clarity

All I want to do is to change the audio track that is used when the main programme is played. I don't want to lock the track selection.

What I want to happen is this:

1) The copyright message displays
2) A menu appears that has the options "5.1 mix" and "Stereo"
3) The decision made there sets what track is used when the main programme is played, including when it is played from .
4) If the user hits the audio button to change the audio track that is fine. I do not want to prevent that.
5) The next menu is the main menu.

Really I just want a stand audio selection menu like you have on 90% of DVDs, but I just want it to appear right after the copyright warning. A good example of this would be the Warner Brothers Charlie Chaplin box set. Each title has a menu right after the copyright warning to select between the mono and (faked) 5.1 mix.

So would setting GRPM or something similar in that menu in stage 2 do the trick?

Cheers,

Rob
owlsroost wrote on 7/1/2008, 10:29 AM
Creating audio selection menus is covered (to some extent) in the DVDA pdf manual - see the 'Inserting a setup menu' section (page 58 in the DVDA5 version).

I tested something like this in DVD Architect 4.5c a few months ago. I added the film twice to the menu and labelled one button "5.1 Mix" and the other "Stereo Mix" and used the properties to set the correct audio track. Unfortunately I found that the side effect of this was that instead of intelligently allocating the disc resources, DVD-architect added the entire video stream twice, which took me way over the available disc budget. Is there an alternative method to do this, or a template that automates it?

Instead of inserting the movie twice to get two buttons, try inserting it once, then copy the button and change the properties of the new button to select a different audio track (I haven't tried it for audio selection, but it certainly works for selecting different entry points into the movie from the top-level menu).

Tony
MPM wrote on 7/1/2008, 2:27 PM
That's easy Rob! Thanks for clarifying... breaking it down:

TO show your Audio Selection menu first: Design your project first, then create an audio selection menu - it can't be a sub-menu, so keep it at the root level in the tree on the left. I assume your copyright notice would be the first play video - have your end action be the Audio Selection menu. Keeping the Audio Selection menu further down the "tree", *below* your first or main menu, the viewer can still get to the main menu using the remote - if you have the audio selection menu first, that's where they'll wind up instead. Now the buttons on the Audio Selection menu can switch tracks, & point to the desired menu.

You also mentioned: "...including when it is played from". If you mean having different start &/or end times, that can get a bit trickier to plan out, unless you just stick 2 links on the menu page rather than using the Audio Selection menu. You can copy/paste the title play button from a menu page, and that gives you a copy of the original video, rather than inserting the same video twice (there are directions in other threads, in the manual etc.). You can set different start times and durations for each.

But let's say you stick with the Audio Selection menu as above... You'd still want two titles - remember a title is just a cell list of what to play, so you still have only one video with 2 audio tracks on your DVD. You could set the start & end times possibly at the time you call the video, but I think it's easier & more manageable to just put each title on a separate menu page. TO do that you'd still just copy/paste the button, but you paste it on a different menu page. The button pressed on your Audio Selection menu would determine which menu page to display.

OK, everything should work now, except what happens when your viewer returns to the main menu? Each title should return to the menu that called it, which is cool. [Tip: You might want to disable the "Top Menu" button on the remote.] And if you include a button/link to the Audio Selection menu on each main page, the viewer can switch between the two at will, and each title menu page can have button/links to its own chapter menu. But, what happens if the viewer switches audio tracks while the video's playing?... You haven't switched titles - just the track that's playing - so the viewer will return to the wrong menu...

That's where you can insert a script that reads the player's variable, and uses that to decide which menu page to display. [The manual for DVDA 5 covers the different SPRMs, so look at that to determine which one you want.] I think it might work better if you inserted a dummy menu or video above the 2 title menus to hold the scripting, but you can also try attaching it to each title menu. You would set a GPRM to the value of the SPRM for audio track, then have a conditional link to either menu page based on the value of that GPRM. If the video ended or the viewer pressed the menu button, they'd still wind up at the correct title menu page.

You'd have to include similar logic for different chapter menus, or turn off that button on the remote, forcing the viewer to return to the correct main menu to access the chapter menu. If you went for added scripting, you'd want to attach the script right to the chapter menu itself, and you'd probably find it easier if the chapter menus were at the root level rather than as submenus. The scripting would be more-or-less identical to what you used for the main menus - set the GPRM & jump to either chapter menu set.

If you wanted to get fancier, you could have 2 Audio Selection menus as well, one with a background indicating 5.1 was already selected, & the other Stereo.

Again, you can skip this long-winded part - everything after the 2nd paragraph, if I misunderstood - again - & the stereo & 5.1 start times and durations are the same.