Moving over to Premiere, but man it isn't easy.

safrican wrote on 12/21/2011, 4:38 PM
So, I ran into some good fortune and was given a copy of Adobe Master Collection CS5.5

First off, the full version of photoshop is great, have always used the elements versions in the past.

Secondly, the integration between products is great too, you can manipulate photoshop docs in premiere or after effect etc.

Third, Audition is great, hand down a winner over Sound Forge.

But........

Getting this done in Premiere is another story. I don't know if I am just too used to Vegas, the layout etc but most of why I do seem tedious at times in Premiere.

Small things I can't live without

"U" to ungroup the "G" to group. Have not figured out how to do this easily yet. Use it all the time with second audio clips.

Increasing the zoom by rolling the mouse wheel, have to drag a slider in Pre. It works but not as accurately.

The instant cross fade by dragging two clips over one another and the easy fade in and fade out. Can be done in Pre but takes 20-30 seconds per clip, as opposed to 3 seconds in Vegas.

Pan and crop, as odd as it seemed in the beginning I am completely hooked on it. So easy once you get your arms around it. While there is pan and crop in Pre, crop is an effect and pan takes a little getting used to.

The timeline in Pre, for whatever reason, is harder to read too. Mot sure why.

Now for the cool things in Premiere Pro CS5.5

The media encoder is a separate program. While editing you have the ability to open project A, work on it as you need to, then "queue" the render to the media encoder, at that time you can also queue other output formats for the same project.
Now here is the cool part, you can open another project, do what you need to and then queue the render.
Then when all is said and done you can fire off the renders and let them go through the night or however needed.

There is also a watch feature, it will watch a folder and if a new file arrives in the folder it will render it according to the settings for that folder, nice when you are rendering from Vegas etc.

Also there is render options not available to vegas. Some that I have been getting to with 2 steps, vegas -> handbrake etc.

Lastly, the slow motion is much smoother than in Vegas. Not sure the details why but it looks way better and there is no 4X or /4 limit.

So with all that, I get discouraged when working on something complex Premiere and actually gave up on a project over the weekend and did it in vegas instead. I think it is all about practice.

I will probably end us easing into Pre, but there are things Vegas does very well, I will just probably not upgrade to V11 or higher, at least not for a while.

Comments

VidMus wrote on 12/21/2011, 5:27 PM
Every NLE has its high and low points. My twin brother uses Pre and he can't figure out Vegas at all. He keeps trying to do everything 'Pre' in Vegas.

So now you have to learn not to do everything Vegas in Pre.

I went from another NLE to Vegas and it took me a while to let go of the old ways and get used to the new ways. There were some things basically the same and others quite different.

So it is done 'X' way in Vegas and 'Y'' way in Pre. You will need to make notes of the differences and adjust over time.

Pre was never an option for me because when I tried the trial version I could not figure anything out but that was a long time ago before I knew anything NLE. Also, and most important is the price of Pre is and was prohibitively high for my budget.

My video work is mostly for Church, theater and hobby so the huge expense is not justified.

Congrats on your free-bee and best to you on your new adventure.

Danny Lee Fye

www.dannyfye.com/lhrb
farss wrote on 12/21/2011, 5:28 PM
I find both have killer features and major frustrations.
If I was cutting a project with a screenplay and shot lists etc Ppro in a heartbeat.
For most of what I do Vegas is easier to live with.

I still wonder what my world would be like if Adobe had bought Sonic Foundry.

Bob.
Laurence wrote on 12/21/2011, 5:31 PM
I have version 5 of Adobe and agree with some of your points. I LOVE the full version of Photoshop, but still prefer Sound Forge to Audition.

In addition to grouping and ungrouping, I find it hard to live without my collection of Vegas scripts. Things like being able to normalize all the dialog at once are really hard to live without.

I agree that V11 isn't practical to use in it's current form. It just crashes way too much.

V10 works well except for crashes with Cineform and some black frames with certain source formats. I am using it most of the time and just avoiding Cineform unfortunately.

V9 works really well when I need Cineform.

V8 is good but lacks AVCHD support.

I really do wish SCS would get their act together. Vegas used to be so stable the fact that some of us are considering leaving has nothing to do with the feature set and everything to do with the bugs that have crept in with the new features.
PeterDuke wrote on 12/21/2011, 5:52 PM
I still find the pan/crop in Vegas to be back-to-front. Perhaps that is because I came to Vegas from Premiere Elements.

It used to be said that if you learnt programming in the days before OOP, you were too brain damaged to pick up OOP properly. That certainly also applied to me.
Kevin Lankford wrote on 12/21/2011, 7:10 PM
Since committing myself to learning ppro after being a vegas user since v6, I've been pretty excited about it. I've had zero crashes and the seamless integration with after effects particularly is eye-watering joy! There are some things that are quicker in vegas but for me these are dwarfed by the crash-free editing, mercury-fueled rendering, and multi-application integration of the adobe suite. I regret waiting so long to make the switch.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 12/21/2011, 8:45 PM
On a side note, comparing Audition to SF is like comparing Photoshop to Powerpoint. They do two completely different things: SF is the Photoshop of audio, Audition is competition to Acid.

Some things to note (not software related): If you don't upgrade to 6, you can't upgrade any more. New rule. You can only stay one upgrade behind and if you don't upgrade to 6 you can't get 7 w/o paying full price. You can't sell your old version or give it away. Adobe had great integration between their products, something Sonic Foundry/SCS never really went after. Once you get used to the Adobe stuff you'll have the exact same plaints as you do about Vegas. Years ago, Premier made current Vegas 11 complaints seem like minor ones. AE is a "poor mans" industry standard (Photoshop is the industry standard all across the board). It's definitely worth learning (not in my opinion though, I don't have a need for it yet).

I don't have the complaints about Vegas most other have but I don't upgrade every year, I don't use an upgrade 100% until I know it's quirks, I try to keep everything (media, images, etc) with stuff I know works, reencoding if necessary.
cybercom wrote on 12/21/2011, 10:53 PM
Media encoder will work in the background while you are still editing a timeline. You don't have to wait until you are out of PrPro before encoding.
You can open multiple sequences in a single project. You don't have to keep opening multiple projects and then importing them into a master project to build the whole show.
You can send a clip directly to After Effects or Audition, modify it and return to PrPro without having to save and import. It's just there with all the changes.
It is a breeze to change the keyboard to what you are used to. (I still can't get Vegas to keep changes and it works more like SoundForge than an NLE like Avid or FCP. There are way too many audio-centric and useless commands in Vegas and not enough video commands.
BTW, To Group/Ungroup, right click on the clip and there is an entire menu that will open. I'm sure you could also use Ctrl + G and Ctrl + Shift + G or simply go into Edit\Keyboard Shortcuts\Clip and change it to what you are used to.

I'm constantly fighting with Vegas because it uses regions and loses in and out points from the trimmer and lacks many of the other tools I'm used to from Premiere Pro 5.5. Unfortunately, I'm editing dual stream, 3D avi files and right now Vegas is the only NLE that recognizes them and allows me to edit on a single timeline instead of trying to keep two video clips and one audio clip synchronized. Been there, done that. PITA!!
Best of luck with your new software. I think you're gonna love it once you get it set up.

<")%%%><(
NickHope wrote on 12/21/2011, 10:57 PM
If I lost the ability to zoom the timeline with the mouse wheel, it would be like cutting off a body part.

The automatic crossfades (and perhaps auto-ripple?) are what made me switch to Vegas from Premiere 6.5, instead of going to Premiere Pro. I just couldn't get my head around transitions in Premiere Pro. Vegas was faster for me to churn out daily videos. Plus that stuff about conforming audio etc. in Premere Pro. Plus, the Sony DV codec was top.

One thing I like in Premiere Pro is the realtime feedback of clip length while you drag-edit the ends of it. Never understood why Vegas doesn't have that.
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 12/22/2011, 5:22 AM
I've got both, I use both, but I hate premier ( mostly because I haven't used it for 10 years like I have Vegas ). Still it's the same complaint I hear from many others, and the same complaint I have, I have to do 5 or 7 steps when 1 or 2 should do it.

Honestly, if they made premier into a vegas style workflow, I don't know that I'd have any real need to keep both around, but that being said. I suggest using both for different tasks ( different tools for different tasks ). That's just my suggestion though.

Dave
John_Cline wrote on 12/22/2011, 5:47 AM
Another workflow killer in Premiere is that fact that playback comes to a screeching halt whenever you adjust a parameter. You also can't have the preview window and scopes up at the same time.

I have Premiere v5.5 and all this discussion about it prompted me to open it and load up some AVCHD files from my NX5, I put one on the timeline and hit the spacebar to play it and Premiere crashed immediately. So much for my yearly five minutes in Premiere...
Grazie wrote on 12/22/2011, 5:56 AM
JC: "You also can't have the preview window and scopes up at the same time."

Is that so, huh!

. . and in the true seasonal, Panto tradition:

"Infamy Infamy . . they've got it In For Me!"

NickHope wrote on 12/22/2011, 6:44 AM
2 very good points JC. I'd hate to be without either of those major Vegas benefits.

To redress the balance a little, here's 2 things I preferred in Premiere and miss in Vegas: 1. Tooltips showing you the names of clips on the timeline when you hover over them. 2. Audio scrubbing - It's much more responsive and can pick out the words very easily.
John_Cline wrote on 12/22/2011, 6:47 AM
"1. Tooltips showing you the names of clips on the timeline when you hover over them."

Hit "Ctrl+Shift+I" and turn on "Active Take Information."
NickHope wrote on 12/22/2011, 6:52 AM
I have that on but typically most of the name is truncated unless I zoom in.
farss wrote on 12/22/2011, 7:21 AM
"You also can't have the preview window and scopes up at the same time. "

I seem to recall finding a way around that.
Never really bothered me anyway as unlike Vegas, in Ppro you don't need to worry so much about levels and scopes, stuff just works as expected.

Crash wise I'd say Ppro and Vegas is neck and neck on that "feature" but mostly Ppro and AE at least give you one last chance to save your project, never had Vegas be so gracious.

In all honesty Ppro has saved my bacon several times, there's some persistant bugs in Vegas that Ppro doesn't suffer from, possibly because it use DirectShow rather than the long obsolete VFW interface.

On the other hand the reason I switched was simply because of Vegas's audio capabilites and that hasn't changed in 10 years. I just wish SCS would do more on the audio side, the much improved pitch shift is a big bonus but good grief, still no BWF support :(

The other thing is clients have heard of Ppro, no one seems to have heard of Vegas, sigh, even in the audio post world I've had people try to second guess what I am using and of the 10 or so apps they rattled off Vegas was not on their list. Heck, even most of the Sony people haven't heard of Vegas, even today, sigh (again).

Bob.
Jay Gladwell wrote on 12/22/2011, 8:57 AM

I had been a Vegas user for ten years this month--since version 3 (2001). Over the years, and with each upgrade, the glitter began to fade. It got to the point where I simply couldn't edit the way I used to. The process slowed down and the program became unstable. Editing itself had become a chore, rather than a pleasure.

With the advent of Vegas 10, I moved, albeit begrudgingly, to Premiere Pro. Yes, there was a learning curve, a shallow one. That was this past March. I've used Vegas once since then. Editing is once more a pleasure, where I think about editing, rather than fighting problems with my NLE.

Yes, there are things I miss, as some have pointed out above. Taking all things into consideration, in my experience, Vegas is only a shadow of its former self. That is sad.


JJKizak wrote on 12/22/2011, 2:42 PM
The only thing I ever liked in Premiere was the credit roll which was very easy to operate and rock stable. I still think Vegas 10/11 current problems are due to downsizing and letting the star programmers play out their options to reduce the salary cap. There were 74 changes just in V11.
JJK
crocdoc wrote on 1/7/2012, 1:53 AM
"AE is a "poor mans" industry standard
Just out of curiosity, compared to what other motion graphics software does AE come out as the 'poor man's' version?
farss wrote on 1/7/2012, 3:51 AM
"

Nuke from The Foundry and Fusion from Eyeon are two that come to mind.
There's also Avid's DS System at an even higher price but DS is editing and compositing all in one package.

Both Nuke and Fusion are nodal compositors which could take a while to get the head around. I know zip about DS.

Bob.
crocdoc wrote on 1/7/2012, 9:44 PM
Thanks!
rs170a wrote on 1/7/2012, 11:55 PM
One thing I like in Premiere Pro is the realtime feedback of clip length while you drag-edit the ends of it. Never understood why Vegas doesn't have that.

Show Event Length, free, thanks to Gilles Pialat aka Rosebud.

Mike
NickHope wrote on 1/8/2012, 12:36 AM
Yes Mike, I use Gilles' great little custom command all the time when I'm editing.

Ages ago I did a little mockup of how live event length could very neatly be integrated into Vegas:

deusx wrote on 1/8/2012, 1:23 AM
Vegas is Audition and Premiere in one, so it's laughable to even try to compare. You only need to add sound forge for noise reduction and occasional surgery, neither of which you'll ever need if you know what you're doing and are not one of those delusional "we'll fix it in the mix" types.

It's not a fair comparison at all. Vegas wins easily. Zero crashes with version 11, so I can't comment on that.

>>>Both Nuke and Fusion are nodal compositors which could take a while to get the head around.<<<

I found Fusion to be much easier to use than After Effects and like you said it it's generally better.
rs170a wrote on 1/8/2012, 8:24 AM
Gotcha Nick and I agree. That would be a GREAT little addition to Vegas and I don't think it would be that hard to implement.

Mike