I don't agree. I believe that there will always be different levels of software for the foreseeable future. After all, not every user will demand total access to the entire DVD-Video feature set. I foresee three levels of users.

My point was really directed to Sonic Foundry to highlight how unbalanced the bundle of VV4 and DVDA is. VV4 is as good an NLE as you'll find from anyone in its price range, but because of its authoring restrictions, DVDA is not. However, in order to gain access to some of the advanced features of VV4, such as AC-3 5.1 encoding, you'll either need to make a separate purchase just to enable the encoder, or you must buy the VV4+DVDA package, which also enables AC-3 5.1 in Acid Pro.

It's the imbalance that concerns me.

I agree DVD A is limited. But it is very useful and quick to go from raw video to finished DVD. And I think this basic function is what SF wanted to give us. I'm hoping DVD A v.2 will have the functionality that we all want. Given the track record of other SF offerings I feel pretty confident this will happen.

I don't think of DVDA as "Pro" at all and that doesn't bother me. I would like to see some bug fixes and a little better video management, but I think DVDA is great in it's simple (yet somewhat creative) approach (the very thing it's constantly getting attacked for).

As I said before, the cost of Vegas4+DVD which includes a fairly comprehensive Digital Dolby encoder and a useful (if limited) DVD authoring package is still a bargain even if you decide to use a Sonic Solutions or Adobe Authoring package in the future. I STILL feel that qualifies this package as "Professional" even though we'd all like more, I for one certainly don't feel ripped off!

You can always save to elementary streams in Vegas 4 or just make your DD audio there and render your MPEG2 someplace else. No lack of possibilities, certainly none at this low, low price point - geez!

Here we go again. I view these forums as a way for those of us to help each other work with our existing programs. I think it is very unfair to use them as a bully pulpit to preach to others about "someone else's" programs, about how SOFO will never make it and attempts to define anyone that does not enjoy dealing with endless options and hundreds of adjustments somehow not Pro's. If you want to be a Hollywood producer move to Hollywood and take up film not video. I have used SOFO products since the first ACID program came out and have found them careful and correct in developing aids to those of us that have a genuine interest in using thier products. I have worked with many, many professional singers helping them get thier careers off the ground using Sound Forge to get audio demos out to music industry leaders for review. Were ther other programs of much greater complexity that I could have used, yup, but if these aspiring musicians had had to go to people that used these "Pro" programs they would have been priced out of the market. I am a video editor as well and used to be a videographer before I became disabled. I do have my wheelchair fitted with a special camera mount so I can do some video work of my choosing. I have used a number of programs in my journey to video editor and have ended up back to and old friend SOFO. I am not a Hollywood Producer and do not aspire to be one, I am a professional editor and quite happy with Vegas 4 and DVDA could it be better, yes but then again so could I. I know DVDA will improve with time and hopefully so will I but in the mean time my customers and I continue to be very satisfied witht he straightforward products we use from SOFO and the results of the use of them.
So please, if you do not like "our" products, go somewhere else and let us spend our valuable time working with what we have and helping each other.
Goodbye (I hope)

Here we go again indeed... Why some people especially in this forum seem super sensentive to even the slightest construstive criticism of SoFo, DVD-A in particular, I simply don't understand. I don't think its a big leap to say most like SoFo and find their products top drawer. Pointing out obvious and sometimes not so obvious shortcomings isn't using the forum as a 'bully pulpit' nore is it in any way unfair, this is afterall first and foremost a PEER USERS group set up by SoFo for USERS to discuss the application strengths and yes WEAKNESS, so sure, both pro AND con comments should be welcome. It is not, nore should it become a fan club where only positive comments are heard. Nor should some be suggesting if you don't like it, use something else. That's simply childish.

Geez... checkout any of the Microsoft public newsgroups for example if you REALLY want to see applications being criticized. Ripped right and left, flamed to a crisp, would be a better description, sometimes fairly, sometimes not at all.

That is not offered to compare SoFo to Microsoft. That would be unfair. SoFo is vastly superior in customer service and truly listens to their customers, which again is WHY criticism is not only good, its necessary, if you want to see improvements in the next version.

What annoys the crap out of me, is some offer up the very weak, its only version one, what do you expect excuse. Face it, that's all it is an EXCUSE and if you accept that, then buddy I hate to tell you, you've been brainwashed! DVD Authoring isn't that new, there are many competing products out there and frankly SoFo should have done a better job doing their homework and more carefully target their nitch of the market. So far, in my opinion, they dropped the ball in their first attempt. I hope, yes, expect, the next version addresses some of the issues many of us have raised which would make DVD-A more the "professional" product is is suppose to be already and honestly doesn't quite make it. You paid a lot of money for DVD-A. While I understand its version one, some of the things missing or not very well done, well... that's odd, not for software in general, but for SoFo. The grumbling about DVD-A is BECAUSE SoFo has raised the bar so high for its other applications, and to be honest, the first version of DVD-A is somewhat disappointing, because it doesn't have the polish many of us were expecting considering what it costs. Pointing that out is simply being honest and objective.

"You paid a lot of money for DVD-A..."

Wait a minute, I paid about $200 more for Vegas4+DVD over just buying Vegas4, and that $200 includes a fairly substantial Digital Dolby Encoder (which SoFo sells seperately for around $300).

That leaves, how much?, wow, I not only got DVD Architect for FREE, they paid me to buy it.

Now if that's too much for this fine start of a product (I'll take it over DVDit!PE or SpruceUp 1.1 anyday), than I'm missing something.

Let's just see how Adobes Encore is the first time out. I hope you're as ready to so easily criticize that much, much, more expensive product as you are this one. And, yes I'm also sure it will be a more comprehensive and "professional" product. So what? It will probably be A Sonic Solutions creation anyway, and I'm through with them.

Please try to put it into some realistic perspective. I'd love more features out of DVDA too, but I also know that great DVD authoring software isn't given away for free (yet). And, what constitutes great features and ones that some may not require is V-E-R-Y subjective. When it get's too subjective then all bets are off...

Most of the price of DVD-A is due to the Dolby encoder. A feature nobody asked for that I can remember, and not something everyone will use. Some people don't seem to understand that. A DVD Authoring program should be that... and just that, a DVD Authoring program. The encoder should have been sold seperately for those that wanted it. Then again so should have DVD-A been sold seperately, instead of forcing people to buy it bundled with Vegas. The bottom line is if you remove the encoder and take away Vegas, what's left? Not that much to be honest. That's the basis of the criticim. You're paying arouund $200 for at best what is a $50 value DVD Authoring program. One that's missing several common features. Heck, you can't even open the DVD and reburn it. A feature several much cheaper DVD Authoring packages do.

Okay Billyboy,

You haven't addressed my complaint about your criticisms of DVDA and I think I know where you are coming from. Nobody can offer solutions because you're not listening, you're just complaining - period!

That's okay, you have every right to do what you want.

But, as I stated before, you are basically getting a DVD authoring program for free with the Digital Dolby Encoder and from that angle it's a steal - right?

Now, if you don't want the DD Encoder and you don't like DVDA, then get Vegas 4 and buy the authoring package you want. However, to come here and boast your authority without objectivity or reasonable arguments to back it up (from what I've read) is NOT constructive - IMHO.

My suggestion is, do yourself a favor, return the product to SoFo and let those of us be, who want this product to grow and become better. Because, I doubt you're ever going find anything good with it the way it is designed to work and I don't think SoFo can afford to scrap it just for you (maybe, but I doubt it).

However, I do agree with you that DVDA should have been sold separate...

Okay, since I started this rant;

DVDA was positioned by SF as a pro application. It has been justifiably criticized because it is not. This is especially true as it relates to adherence to DVD-Video specs for elemental video streams and more importantly subpictures.

Regarding the critique in general;

SF is full of strengths, not the least of which is that they read and participate in these forums. This is not common amongst similar software companies. If the user community doesn't offer any analysis, good and bad, then we lose the opportunity to provide input and help direct product development and evolution.

Here are some examples;

The justification for requiring multiplex mpg video streams is invalid. The additional information related to chapter point and any other controls could (and should) have been achieved by the creation of a separate control file (ASCII text) that could be interpreted by the DVD authoring application. This approach would have afforded many significant advantages. This same structure could have been used for subtitle scripting, menu navigation and a host of other ancillary authoring chores. Just because no one else has stumbled on this approach (with the exception of Daikin who allowed for subtitle scripting in ReelDVD and Scenarist) is no justification for not pursuing this objective. It's no doubt easier to generate the chapter point data in multiplexed mpg files because the specifications for such files supports this approach, however the old adage of 'just because you can doesn't mean you should," holds true.

On the value of DVDA as a bundled part of VV4+DVD;

My point is that this is an unbalanced product offering. Would you offer Pinnacle Studio with Scenarist? I don't think so, but by REQUIRING a non-professional grade product to unlock the advanced features of the professional grade application that's what has occurred. Frankly, my nit about the AC-3 encoder is that I can't edit AC-3 files in VV4 synchronized with the video stream. In fact, I can't edit them at all, yet I had this ability with Soft Encode. If I'm wrong on this point, I'd love to be corrected.

About Sonic Foundry's product approach;

I've long believe that SF's audio application were among the best anywhere. ACID and SoundForge are professional grade tools that perform as advertised and more importantly, they allow an author to use his or her creativity unfettered by the applications. This is not true of DVDA. The author is restricted by the application which is counterintuitive to previous SF product development.

If a company charges money for a product then it should not serve as a development in progress. The market is not a beta test site. Those have their place, but there is no excuse for promoting the usefulness of any application when that capability remains a work in progress.

This statement alone is very misleading:

"Design menus and chapters using an extensive set of professional design tools including object framing."

I'm not sure what profession is referred to but I can assure you it isn't DVD authoring. The lack of dynamic button assignment, subpicture highlight construction and mapping is typically indicative of consumer applications.

By the way, we use software from Sonic Solutions and I regularly bash the heck out of them too. How else can we get what we need instead of the manufacturers telling us what we need? There is no better example of this phenomenon than the international proliferation of firmware for CD-R and DVD-R (and +R) optical burners and drives. Pioneer has long insisted that they knew what was best for consumers, but the marketplace has challenged that "opinion" and produced the ability to configure these devices to suit the demands of those users irrespective of the manufacturer’s intent. I expect that its only a matter of time before the same happens in the software arena, but the manufacturers who listen, adopt and adapt to the demands of users will be the least affected and most successful in the long run.

Wrong DigVid. I didn't buy an encoder... I BOUGHT a DVD Authoring application that happens to come with a AC3 encoder. I think we kind of fall into two camps. Those that need/want the encoder think the package is a steal. Those that don't want or will rarely use the encoder may think they were ripped off.

I'm really on the fence. I don't feel ripped off, but I hate being forced to buy one thing just to get something else on principle. That ALWAYS leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Its like you go to the supermaket to buy a loaf of bread and they won't sell it to you unless you also buy some butter or jelly. That's why I think the encoder should have been sold seperately and so too should Vegas be. <wink>

"...boast your authority without objectivity or reasonable arguments to back it up (from what I've read) is NOT constructive - IMHO."

What authority? While I may be a prolific poster in the Vegas forum (I made well over a thousand posts) I have no more authority than anyone else. I'm just expressing my opinion and yes, I do that better than some people.

Further if you don't like my opinions, there is a very simple solution. Make use of the ignore user feature in the forum. Really, I'm on my good behavior in these forums. Thankfully for you, this isn't a newsgroup or I'd rip you a new one for how you responded to me. Some free advice. Grow up and try to at least pretend to be an adult.

This forum unlike the other SoFo forums seems to have attracted some diehard SoFo supporters that for a lack of a better term seem blind to the shortcomings of DVD-A and seem enraged everytime anybody points out something they don't like or find fault with. I would liken them to Mac maniacs that also feverishly and often blindly praise Mac and poo poo everything else and haven't a clue what OBJECTIVE means. Pity. I'm not going anywhere either. <wink>

"I think we kind of fall into two camps. Those that need/want the encoder think the package is a steal. Those that don't want or will rarely use the encoder may think they were ripped off."

I think we agree to a point...

The problem is SoFo has offered (I believe) enough of a package with AC3 (which those like myself covet) and a nice feature group, to lay off (most) "inadequacies" found in DVDA.

Because, today no DVD authoring software (with a reasonable price) is perfect or even close.

Also, if SoFo has sold DVDA under some sort of false pretenses then shame on them. However, I don't feel (for the price) that I have been ripped off. I know the (current) value of high-end DVD authoring software and Sonic Solutions ripped us much more obviously than (I feel) SoFo deserves to be accused of, based on the arguments set forth here.

Bottom line is, I can't help but feel that "Hollywood" (another topic for another day) has put too many restictive demands on the whole DVD authoring process which has led to this lack of true versatility we desire in our DVD authoring applications...

I've used DVDit Pro for a year and half now and find DVD-A superior (motion menus for one!). Version 1 of any application is usually more of a promise of things to come as it is worked over in the reel world...;-)

First of all rad's analysis was really quiet elegant. Second---Billy Boy is correct--lets not let this forum take on cult-like characterisitics. Healthy criticism is a good thing. Having said that, here is my take on DVD Arch. Sonic has financial problems---Sonic needed to release 4.0-----Sonic also needed to generate additional revenues---therefore, they rushed out DVD Arch. This makes sense in that the engineers over at Sonic are just two talented and to aware of the DVD authoring market to release anything that is only slightly above entry level.

The good news is that if Sonic straightens out their financial issues, DVD ARch could evolve into an excellent product.

rextilleon, I hate to be the grammar correction police, but it is important to get the name right. It is extremely important to get it right when talking about DVD authoring apps. Sonic Foundry is a different company from Sonic. Using the abbreviation can cause some confusion.

My problem is and has been the tone of some of the posts. I don't think SOFO is perfect and feel there is a lot of room for improvement in any application. As an ex cop and current cripple who has a sticker on his wheelchair that says "hire the handicapped they are fun to watch" I don't think I am a stranger to sharp talk. However some of the posts and you BillyBoy are one of the worst offenders seemt to be vicious attacks on SOFO. I go to your web site as see the most helpfully guy in the world that has and does perform valuable service to the vegas 4 community but then to come here and read the way you write would make one feel that you are a vicious person that hates SOFO and would be happy to destroy them. For those people that do not bother to find adn go to your web site inmagine how they must feel about you and imagine how your posts may influence someone that is looking around before they purchase a product. I am sure you have valid points every time you talk and we should listen and pay attention but you would scare me away from the product if I did not know better. Like it or not you are a leader in the SOFO community and I have been concerned that you may drive people away form these fine products when you have no intention of doing so.

One thing that I would like to see implemented in DVD-A is the ability to work with PhotoShop layers.

Vicious attacks? Bear... get the professional help you need for anger management. You're right about a problem. YOU got one for sure. You're obviously rather ill if you think objective comments are vicious attacks. I'm sorry you're stuck in a wheelchair, that isn't an excuse to attack me or others simply because they find fault with a software application. That's part of what these forums are for... to air concerns.

You want to see vicious, go to the audio forum and read some of the crap a certain Joey character posts. And yes I do take offense at you attacking me for the "crime" of expressing my opinion.

Bear - Totally agree with you. Could have written that post myself (except that I can't see BillyBoys posts anymore - he is the one and only person I have ever "blocked" and it is due to his childish attitude. This should get him going - too bad I won't be able to read his response ;))

BillyBoy,

If all you want is a DVD Authoring application (i.e. no video or audio encoders) have you seen DVDLab from www.mediachance.com/dvdlab? I use Vegas to create and encode my video assests, and the DVD-A AC3 encoder to create my audio assests, then drop both of these into DVDLab to create the final project. If you read the philosophy of why DVDLab was written in the first place, I think you'll find it attractive.

Hmmm... the prima dona types are making themselves known it seems. ;-)

Yes, BillyBoy, it seems that YOU are.