What do you mean by "4 levels" ?

> I'm kind of left feeling that maybe other apps do it better

So what other NLE’s do 3D motion? I think Ulead MediaStudio Pro does (if I remember the demo I once used) but it was harder to use than Vegas. Does Premiere? The fact that the Vegas team realized that you can’t do any serious 3D work without a Top, Front, Side, and Perspective view is what impressed me the most. IMHO, they got it right. I hardly use Ulead Cool 3D Production Studio anymore because its sophomoric perspective-only view makes it impossible to do any detailed 3D work. You just can’t determine where things are in 3D space with any accuracy. I use Cinema 4D for a lot of my 3D title work now. I can’t even begin to understand Boris Graffiti LTD. I opened it twice and closed it in frustration within the first 5 minutes. It just cost too much to learn.

> Pull the generated media out of a track and replace it with something else, the track looses all its properties.

But wouldn’t you expect this to happen? The key frames are tied to the event not the track so that when you move the event on the track the keyframes move with it. The best way to replace media in veg files that I’ve found is to go to the media pool and right click on the media and select Replace from the popup menu. The other way is just right-click and drag the new media to the event and add it as a take. Both of these preserve the properties of the original event.

~jr

> What do you mean by "4 levels" ?

The parent/child nesting can be up to 4 levels deep in Vegas 5. So far I haven't needed more than 3.

~jr

I seem to be able to nest more levels than this, is this normal ?

but I'm kind of left feeling that maybe other apps do it better,

Such as?

well they've put more work into making it easier to do, and they've still not fixed an annoying bug.

This is not a bug.
Options | Lock Envelope to Events

That controls whether the keyframe will be deleted or not. The keyframes are not in the event, they are just "locked" to it. This is how it has always worked.

I've watched guys on high end systems do this stuff in real time, I don't expect Vegas to do that without some very expensive hardware but the impressive bit is the controls and the UI on the high end systems is designed to make it very easy to do, no matter how fast the render spped it can take hours to use some of the new widgets in V5.

For example? I've never seen an easier or more intuitive implementation of hierarchical compositing. I don't use Combustion but I use 3dsMAX and AfterFX and it is more convoluted in both those apps.

Great if you only use them once in a blue moon but if it was bread and butter stuff to your business I'm certain you'd be springing for a more capable toolset.

Ummmmm nope.

The parent/child nesting can be up to 4 levels deep in Vegas 5.

No it is unlimited.

That's what I thought.
Where does that 4 levels rumor come from ?

It's Grazie, he can only count to four.................

:-)

ME Totally BAD! I'm gonna sit in the Korner now . . okay! - WHere did I get this from .. hmmm... G

> Where does that 4 levels rumor come from ?

Hmmm... I thought I had read somewhere that the composite nesting could be up to 4 levels deep too but I see how that you can get more than that. I stand corrected.

> Options | Lock Envelope to Events

I didn’t realize that this option would also leave the envelopes where they are. (i never used it) This is good to know. Now I have three ways of replacing media without affective the envelopes. ;-)

~jr

> Multi Levels of Parent : Child 3d Composting? Phhhoarrrghhh...

Grazie, Now you’ve gone and done it! You’ve modified the initial subject line thus altering history and messing with the space/time continuum. A direct violation of Starfleet regulations. This is bad... very bad... ;-)

~jr

I takes a few moments for the changes to ripple through the time line AACCKKK!!! There it goes... made me spill my tea. my TEA Grazie! :)

Ah well.

Computer! Earl Grey... Hot.

JR, Ulead's MSP doesn't do 3d, it only allows 3ds models or Cool 3D projects to be dropped onto their timeline. There are a very few 3D transitions, not terribly unlike those found in Vegas, except the cubed ones and so forth are a little tweaky and cheap.
I still like C3D Production Studio for it's lower thirds, powerful graphics capabilty, 3D bugs, extrusion, etc. It's not nearly as slow or challenging as say...3D Max, but it's also not for animating a movie character either. Couldn't ever do even a marginal version of Shrek for instance....
I think the 4 levels rumor came from how Gary says "I can have 4 levels" in the NAB session video that SCVUG did. If you weren't watching really closely, it might be supposed that he meant that you could ONLY have 4 levels, where he meant that he DID have 4 levels.

1) I wasn't referring to other NLEs, I was referring to applications designed from the ground up for doing this kind of work. I'm saying that it's great that this functionality has been added to Vegas BUT I've seen some silly comments about how it's a replacement for high end tools (and yes expensive ones) that can get the job done much easier with more intuitative controls.

2) Yes I know what's happening with the keyframes however if you only have ONE keyframe at the start of track, say for a simple split screen then the issue is far from obvious, it is labelled "Track" pan/crop, not Track Event pan/crop. I worked this out long ago but again it's hardly intuitive..

1) I wasn't referring to other NLEs, I was referring to applications designed from the ground up for doing this kind of work.

Vegas was designed from the ground up for doing this kind of work. Defined as "the kind of work that Vegas is capable of doing" (what other definition would be fair?)

The compositing hierarchy built into Vegas 5 is uniquely easy to work with and facilitates creative flow better than most tools. I was able to make a 25 square video wall in just a couple minutes - and I hadn't read the help or the manual on the topic. When I wanted to rotate the entire wall - I knew exactly what to do. Add a parent to the entire thing and use 3d track motion.

I've seen some silly comments about how it's a replacement for high end tools (and yes expensive ones) that can get the job done much easier with more intuitative controls.

I think you have to define "the job" for this to make sense. I don't see anything in your replies that indicate what you are talking about. Editing 3d video for example... Vegas 5's unique combination of tight Windows integration, real time effects, intuitive pan/crop and track motion, compositing modes, track hierarchy, and flexible scriptable interface, make it almost perfect for compositing / editing stereo video. With other tools I'd be tempted to do the compositing in one and the editing in another.

Vegas manages to blend the compositing / editing worlds seamlessly. The glue that holds them together is a very well thought out, fast, intuitive interface - designed from the ground up.

2) I'll agree with "hardly intuitive", but not "bug". Some things do require reading the manual. Not a big deal though.

Cheesehole,
on your first point you're absolutley right, I am getting old, I'd worked out the answer to that some time ago and then in the heat of the moment forgotten it. Thinking through it again the way it works does seem counter-intuitive BUT then again I cannot see anyway to resolve a set of conflicting requirements that wouldn't be somewhat confusing.

On the second point though although I've never used things like Combustion I've seen what it can do. I've also watched what can be done with vitual set systems. I don't follow your comparison between 3dSMax and Vegas. 3dSMax is a 3d animation program, put simply you use it create content, Vegas is designed to edit content. That seems to me to be two very conflicting spaces. But it's where they meet that things get interesting.I just wonder how far they can be merged, and I'm not just talking about Vegas, other NLEs seem to be having a bit of an identity crisis as well.
Take the demo cube .veg as an example. The 'cube' doesn't exist, you've moved six plannar surfaces into the shape of a cube and then using a parent composite you can move the six surface in a 3D space. This is not the same as starting with a 3D object such as a cube and mapping pixels from tracks onto the surfaces. In that case I could easily have the cube morp into a sphere and the mapping would follow.
Now I'm not for a minute suggesting that Vegas should have that sort of capability and I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with the apps that can do those kind of tricks, lets face it they probably cannot even do color correction, what I'm trying to say is to achieve certain goals any application needs to be designed from the ground up with those goals in mind. Its a bit like trying to use Excel to handle 10,000 records, maybe it'll hang in there but you'd be much better off starting with Access, sure you'll find it harder to use but in the end you'll save yourself a lot of grief.

Bob.

Well, Vegas is not deisgned to be a 3d app... it's designed to be an editing application with 3d features...

I don't follow your comparison between 3dSMax and Vegas.

I compare them because I know them both very well and both have compositing hierarchies. (It's called "Video Post" in MAX) Only it's a million times easier to set up a complex compositing hierarchy in Vegas. Same with AfterFX. It's just faster and easier to do many things in Vegas. Specifically, creating and manipulating a video wall or compositing stereo video - this isn't just something I've seen other people do. I do it.

what I'm trying to say is to achieve certain goals any application needs to be designed from the ground up with those goals in mind

My own perception is that Vegas users who think version 5 represents a departure from the original design goals simply haven't been using Vegas to its capacity.

Take Vegas Video 2.0 for example (that's when I came aboard). You had key frameable pan / crop / track motion, key frameable event level effects, AND you could composite an UNLIMITED number of tracks. Only 4 modes, but they were the important ones. Add / Subtract / Multiply / Alpha. You also had a two level Parent / Child compositing hierarchy. Already you are way beyond "editing" as defined by Premiere and into basic "compositing" - which previously required a $1500 program called AfterFX.

With each version of Vegas these features have been expanded. The progression is clear - no one should be surprised by the introduction in version 5 of unlimited compositing hierarchies or the expansion of track motion into the 3rd dimension.

Identity crisis? I think not! :)

- Ben

Ben,
you've got the benefit of much longer exposure to using NLEs and Vegas so obviously your perception is going to be different to mine. I did some editing 30 years ago on 16mm film and spent the intervening years in engineering. I'm not surprised that these things have been added to Vegas, and I have used compositing in V4 and yes I'm pleased I'll be able to even more sophisticated work in V5 and it's sure great value for the money, I'd say the biggest bang for the bucks of anything on offer period.
That doesn't mean though that it's going to replace toolsets costing 10 times as much, those who use them charge an appropriate rate for what they do and their clients want it done NOW.
What does surprise me though is that more attention hasn't been given to the basic editing functions, they don't impact my workflow very much at all but I can see how they'd be a put off for many coming from linear editing systems. There's a lot of people who've hung on in that area, probably for way too long, for whom I think Vegas would push them too far outside their comfort zone. I know a few of them, whenever I show them Vegas and how to do things it's an uphill battle, firstly you've got the battle of going from linear tape based systems and then dealing with the Vegas oddities. They're impressed by all the tricks you can do with Vegas but these are people who lived in a world of cuts and the odd dissolve, anything else pretty well went off elsewhere to get done.

Bob.

THANKS SPOT! That was it. I watched the video and thought that 4 WAS the max . . . you know what they say, "A little knowledge . .. . etc etc . ."

I wonder if PAW saw it and thought the same .. .hmmm...

Thanks again,

Grazie