My opinion on all these Vegas bug reports

johnmeyer wrote on 9/7/2008, 1:42 PM
Over the years, I have posted over 8,000 times on this board, mostly in this particular forum. I never upgraded to Vegas 8 because of all the bugs reported here.

Vegas 8 was introduced on August 30, 2007, over a year ago: Press Release

and started shipping shortly thereafter.

Vegas Pro 64 bit was introduced on March 11, 2008: Press Release

and has yet to ship.

Users have repeatedly reported major Vegas 8 bugs in these forums. These bugs affect many, although apparently not all, users. These bugs include black frames with HDV. Some of these bugs go back to the previous release. After almost two years of the HDV black frame problem, two months ago, Sony finally acknowledged the black frame problem and started publicly testing a DLL file that definitely changes the behavior, although based on reports in this forum may also may produce some unwanted side effects.

Sony has provide zero feedback to either this forum or, apparently, to individual testers about the status of this attempt to fix just one of the several problems which seem to plague Vegas 8.x.

It is clear that 8.x also continues to have serious problems editing AVCHD files.

Apparently there is some patch about to be released. If it fixes ALL of the major HDV and AVCHD bugs, without causing Vegas to break in new ways, then many of us will be happy (I will finally upgrade to 8.x). However, given that it has been an entire year since this product was released, and given that some of these problems go back further than that, and given that these problems are fundamental to the function of the product (e.g., random, black frames), I find Sony's slow response and total lack of interaction with it's most rabid customers completely and .

Actually, “slow response” doesn't begin to describe the pathetic response to these problems.

Perhaps the people in this forum are not important to their financial success. It is certainly true that this is how we are treated: Would it really be that hard for Sony to post here once every day or two??? However, whether we are important to them financially, I would hope that collectively we are important to the technical quality of the product.

I am at the point that I no longer want to continue with this product, and certainly don't want to waste my time contributing here, unless Sony is going to change its ways.

They need to fix this product, and they also need to find someone who is willing to spend a few minutes every day contributing to this forum. If they don't do both of those things, I will figure out some way to take my business elsewhere.

Comments

Robert W wrote on 9/7/2008, 2:19 PM
I agree. I've said this in a couple of forums before, but the way Sony are handling Vegas is similar to the way Commodroe handled the Amiga. Vegas is a terrific platform that is justly in very bad shape. They should have fast tracked the issues we have been bringing up here and resolved them as a priority. This forum is a valuable resource.

I will also point out that I am not overly impressed that Vegas Movie Studio 9 was released before these issues were resolved in Vegas 8. I think what we have here is a product that was full of great innovation under Sonic Foundry's development, survived under the momentum in the first few Sony releases, but which has now ground to a rather prickly and buggy halt. Movie Studio is their flagship release now. They want the more numerous domestic users (is AVCHD supported better on that release?) and they do not really care about the Pros.

In my opinion, if i was a project manager at Sony, the first thing I would do is refer to this forums to start figuring out what actually needed to be addressed. Having said that, I've no doubt the development team are being as shafted as much as we are. But if they could find they way to working out where the memory leaks are, that would be a good start...

Otherwise, unfortunately I am another who will be looking to transition away from this moribund platform. It is not much to ask for regular updates when there are unresolved issues. And that "Pro" tag just wound me up even more. This is the most unprofessional release ever.

Resolve stability,
Resolve faulty features (protitler, AVCHD support etc...)
Add 5.1 nesting
Resolve all the other weird bugs
Add support for vst automation (!!!)

and maybe it will be heading somewhere near to the road to recovery.
John_Cline wrote on 9/7/2008, 3:46 PM
I haven't run into any bugs in Vegas 8 that have been "show-stoppers", I'm still able to get my work done without any drama. However, I do agree with John that it would be nice if Sony Creative Software had any kind of presence on the forum. There are a few pieces of software that I use that have forums where the programmers are very active participants. This goes a LONG way towards making me feel like part of the team and that I have some sort of voice in the direction of the software.

In just over six years, I've posted 2,920 times myself. John Meyer has 8,328 posts, DSE has 10,663 posts, Grazie has 11,747. There are a number of forum members with over 4,000 posts, yet the "ForumAdmin" has posted only 1,073 times since 1/1/2000. I wish SCS would get more involved.
blink3times wrote on 9/7/2008, 3:52 PM
"I wish SCS would get more involved

Wow... this sounds very much like the Pinnacle Studio forum.... or the Avid Liquid forum..... or the Ulead forums.... or the....

It's very much the same in all of them... why should pelted for being no different?
MarkHolmes wrote on 9/7/2008, 3:57 PM
John, Robert, I couldn't agree more. After the enormous rendering problems with 8.0 on our latest feature film and a complete lack of response from Sony on these issues, one can't help but wonder how much longer users will support the product. Luckily, I have a FCP system just a few feet from my Vegas system, which I find myself using more and more often.
apit34356 wrote on 9/7/2008, 4:00 PM
Well, its a sad day when John feels the pressure! I think because SCS has only a few third party developers that may have slow them from adding simple improvements for not wanting to cut into some of their associate products. Its amazing now simple internal marketing and alliance issues can waste resources and slow the simplistic product improvements. Now, in fairness, SCS has a lot of products and MS VISA has not been the blessing for developers as promise. And VEGAS third party developers are trying to make VEGAS more exciting but limited market hurts development capital for big projects.
GlennChan wrote on 9/7/2008, 4:01 PM
I haven't done HDV work in Vegas myself (end up doing HD work on other platforms), but the black frames issue seems to me to definitely be a show stopping bug. If your output is munged (or you can't output) then you'll lose a lot more time than a simple crash.

2- Perhaps reading this forum can be a bit demoralizing. You gotta admit... there are a lot of Vegas 'bitchfest' threads on this forum. It can get a little out of whack even though Vegas is the favorite NLE of many posters on this forum (myself included). And yeah, from time to time I have contributed to those bitchfests.

Or if you look at what Red is doing (Jim Jannard, the man behind Red, is a frequent poster on reduser.net and other fora)... sometimes user comments get under his skin.

This thread itself could be viewed as demoralizing (though there are valid reasons behind your criticism)... pathetic, slow response, totally unacceptable... somebody get SCS a flamesuit ;)
apit34356 wrote on 9/7/2008, 4:06 PM
"I wish SCS would get more involved" That would help, but then they would need answers for big and small problems. The small problems may be a political issue if it cross over into the limited third party efforts. A lot of third party effort goes into these forums for such a limited exposure. SCS would have to spend some money to replace their active support.
apit34356 wrote on 9/7/2008, 4:17 PM
GlennChan mades an excellent point also. Few staffers could handle some of the pointless slams that sometimes occur, but it still a poor business choice to not support a growing product more. ;-) Just look at VASST and ED, they actively work to make things go right. SCS should contract out forum support between these individuals or a group of active members at the bare minimum.
farss wrote on 9/7/2008, 5:17 PM
"If your output is munged (or you can't output) then you'll lose a lot more time than a simple crash."

That's EXACTLY it.
I've suffered embarassment, wasted capital expenditure and lost clients because of this. That these outcomes were due to issues SCS knew of and failed to alert users of is beyond the pale.
The phrase that comes to mind is reckless indifference.

Bob.


Coursedesign wrote on 9/7/2008, 8:35 PM
I don't believe the developers are indifferent.

But I suspect the development direction is provided by bean counters, possibly far away from Wisconsin.

Management by counting beans has always been effective short-term, and has always been a disaster for the long term results of every company that tried it.

It is all tactics with no strategy.

Many observers from Sun Tzu onwards have noted that it was never a successful end game.

So Sony has been successful with their VMS consumer NLE and perhaps doesn't realize the power of the borrowed shine from Vegas Pro.

If the shine comes off Vegas (due to show stopper bugs that stay unfixed for 1-2 years), that also presents a risk for VMS....

video777 wrote on 9/7/2008, 9:26 PM
Two comments:

1) I have dealt with issues with every NLE that I have used. I have NEVER lost a client due to the problems. Why? They don't know about them and I find a way around it. That is one very good reason to have more than one NLE. It's best to not let yourself be put in a bad situation. I do agree that these issues should be worked out. So far, I am ecstatic with how well Vegas works.

2) I have been to many forums where the developers and even management were involved. This is helpful and ensures they stay connected to the user base.

Question: Where are you seeing the post counts? This is one of the things, among many others, that bugs me about these forums. Can't these forums be moved to a more modern piece of forum software?
ushere wrote on 9/7/2008, 9:32 PM
unfortunately i have to agree with the consensus - though for my 'simple' style of work (c to c, doco with few bells and whistles - cc, titling, the usual, etc) v8 has performed admirably, that is, after the new .dll.

however, having been using vegas for the last 8 years as basically my only nle (a bit of work on others as a freelance), i am now left wondering which nle the 'big fish' (and boy, are they big fish!) of this forum would turn to:

a. avid (which?)

b. pp3

c. edius

d. other (haven't listed fcp as i'm pc based)

i certainly don't want to start any wars, but since i make my living with video production, the last thing i want is to have to work my way through the nle minefield out there to end up with a dud...

meanwhile i live in hope that scs resolve the outstanding problems in 8c before trying to sell me anything more.

leslie

ps. just over 800 posts, so i'm a tadpole.
PeterWright wrote on 9/7/2008, 9:32 PM
> "Where are you seeing the post counts?"

Click on your name.
zcus wrote on 9/7/2008, 10:20 PM
My problems:

RENDERING - this is the major thing that keeps me from using Vegas 8 (PRO??*%$#)
Everything hangs on render!!!!!!!! Prerender will render at the most 2 chunks, and then hang and continues to count down while hanging - I have waited as long as a miniute - then I have to alt + Ctrl + del too end task with vegas. No other way around.

RENDERING TO FILE - same thing, hangs - but then after ending task with vegas i have discovered the file actually has rendered????

Conclusion: Can't use Vegas - nothing renders without ending task!
Just so you know... This is the cleanest install of windows and Sony Software - That is all there is, Windows XP Pro with service pack 2 and Sony Software

I can also repro the Ctrl + envolope seizure thing.

Seeing everybody is not experincing the same problems - the only logical reason I can think of is that there is something HARDWARE/SOFTWARE related.....with some pretty serious underlying bugs in VP8...

I think sony/SCS (like Matrox) should compile a list of certified motherboards, ram and video/sound cards and OS requirments... I think that would save EVERYBODY alot of problems...

8c will be the deciding factor for me to switch - I've been a loyal user and love Vegas's UI and the audio side of Vegas is untouchable by other Vendors....

But I have been waiting sooooo long for 8c to upgrade to a new quad system and 64bit support... but if the bugs are still there I will be moving on even tho I paid for and never used VP8....

STEP UP TO THE PLATE SONY AND REPLY
GlennChan wrote on 9/7/2008, 10:33 PM
zcus, have you tried contacting support? That would be the best way to get help.

Having a pleasant tone will also help you get faster + better support.

(If you've already contacted support, then please disregard my message!)
Serena wrote on 9/7/2008, 11:17 PM
I've thought for some time that various bugs are system related, for some users find Vegas effectively unusable while others find no problems (or very occasional). The developers cannot identify that sort of thing without user input, and that input has to be quite specific in its error reporting. The complexity of projects is another important variable, since some problems might not appear until you have 101 active tracks.
This is where we and ForumAdmin should be working together, for if error reporting is inadequate in detail it isn't surprising that the bugs are impossible to find. Pretty easy to blame user fault should software behave perfectly on the developers' systems. I think little purpose is served by "sounding off" on this forum, unless it does relieve user stress. Some problems seem to be experienced by only a few users, which can make debugging impossible unless considerable detail is provided in error reporting.
rmack350 wrote on 9/7/2008, 11:32 PM
That's a good question. Some here really seem to like Edius, most seem to say to avoid Avid.

I'm not personally a big fish but I'd say that my employer would fit that description on this forum's scale. We're using 3 PPro 2.0 systems with Axio cards for the bread and butter corporate work and an FCP system for a feature length doc.

We're not willing to go to PPro 3.0 because the Axio cards make the whole thing buggy (fast-buggy, it'd be hard to crash faster), but might move to a 64-bit PPro when it comes along and IF Matrox releases Axio drivers for it. I think there's a 50/50 chance the Adobe will beat SCS to the release of a 64-bit NLE.

The PPro systems were totally unworkable for our long form project so we installed the FCP system just for that. I haven't heard any complaints about it (usually the complaining is very loud) so no news is good news about FCP.

I think that PPro without axio cards might be pretty stable so that might be an option to run on a system alongside Vegas.

If you have clients that would be reassured to hear that you have an FCP system then I'd think that'd be the system to go for. I don't think anyone would give a rat's ass if you used PPro or Edius, but FCP is kind of a selling point, for better or worse.

Rob Mack
DJPadre wrote on 9/8/2008, 1:31 AM
John, 100% in agreement with you mate..
It IS pathetic...
More over than the wants... we all have those wants... and wishes.. there are the NEEDS.
Sadly, i have to say that Vegas ON ITS OWN, does not fulfil my needs.. it cant.. it cant support half the formats i work with (DVCPRo or Progressive... ) without screwing them up...
HDV is a joke.. and HDV has been on the market now for over 4yrs...
Its somethign to think about.. considering the evolution of Premier and Edius...

In regard to the black frame isue, its an MPG issue (not just HDV) as i get it it with almost everything i work on (even crappy consumer MPG or basic VOB rips)

So like you, Im still on V7..
Even though i have V8 for some reasons and purposes, I dont use it as often...
I consider it almost every time i start a new project, but frankly, I cannot afford the risk of lost time.
And to me, time lost is money lost...
Robert W wrote on 9/8/2008, 1:33 AM
I would be curious to know how many people that suffer lots of bugs are running in multi screen modes or Otherwise. While I still get crashes, they are a lot rarer when running in single screen modes. But yes, the functionality of the product has been reduced for me as I have to use it in single screen mode in the interest of completing the project.

Also, it is the backwards development decisions and odd development decisions that get me. I mean how difficult would it be to add an extension to the plugin API to read any previous or future frames? I mean, that is almost the exact same code you use to read the current frame but with a different frame number inserted! If you are reading this SCS, hows about you just do it? Really, seriously, just do it. I am handing on a plate a major functionality improvement here, which means you can do such stunning modern "PRO" things such as noise reduction frame stabilization and about a million other things.
PeterWright wrote on 9/8/2008, 1:50 AM
I'm puzzled by the timing of all these complaints.

There's an update due within a week - you must know it's too late for any major changes to be made to that, so why couldn't you folks at least wait and see what it contains?


DGates wrote on 9/8/2008, 2:06 AM
Waiting a YEAR for basic fixes since it's initial release could hardly cause puzzlement.

I love Vegas, and I'll keep using it even if they close up shop. Just remember, Vegas means NOTHING to Sony, either financially or in spirit.
Robert W wrote on 9/8/2008, 2:13 AM
Is there an update due in a week? Oh yes that's right I remember when that Sony guy came and told us about that on that completely random forum none of us had read. How much effort does it take to come and tell us here, or even better, email us! It is not like they do not have our details!

Also, we have been complaining for weeks, months and years! The support team told me to expect 8.0c in the next month - That was last October!
Andrew B wrote on 9/8/2008, 2:28 AM
quote: " I would be curious to know how many people that suffer lots of bugs are running in multi screen modes "

Robert,
I am actually NOT running into a lot of bugs. Perhaps I am managing to only use VEGAS for things that it manages to do well. I am running multiple monitors off a NVIDIA 8800GTX card.
I built a system over a year ago just for running Pro Tools and Vegas. I decided to bite the bullet and put in a stupidly expensive graphics card.
OK, it wasn't STUPIDLY expensive, but 768MB was more card than I needed for VEGAS and Pro Tools.
Anyways, my only issues with VEGAS have been very slow preview speeds. And that is just recently. I am trying to fix that by cleaning up my main RAID drive. It is probably (hopefully) not VEGAS related.
Anyway, just thought I would reply to your question about multi screen users and bugs.

I am about to get rid of my 2 SGI SW1600 monitors in favor of a couple of 23" 1080p models...well...as soon as I get that next big job!
;)

Andrew
DJPadre wrote on 9/8/2008, 2:39 AM
" would be curious to know how many people that suffer lots of bugs are running in multi screen modes or Otherwise. While I still get crashes, they are a lot rarer when running in single screen modes. But yes, the functionality of the product has been reduced for me as I have to use it in single screen mode in the interest of completing the project."

I run 2 montiors on 2 workstations here, and 3 on the main rig..
No issues WHATSOEVER in regard to display causing flake outs..