Neat Video Heads Up

ECB wrote on 8/21/2008, 12:14 PM
I discovered that Neat Video, when processing DV to DV, shifts (delays) the video 2 frames and cuts off the last 2 frames keeping the clip length the same. I preprocessed some raw video that I had already edited. When I replaced the raw with the Neat Video processed video and created the edited mpeg I was surprised to find some of the edits were messed up. This is when I discovered the 2 frame shift. With DV to mpeg I saw a 1 frame shift.

Ed B


Marc S wrote on 8/21/2008, 2:18 PM
You are correct. I've been experiencing the same thing. It must have something to do with the deinterlacing (I think it has to de-interlace before it processes and then re-interlaces).

Jøran Toresen wrote on 8/21/2008, 5:04 PM
This is probably a problem related to how Vegas support external plug-ins. Se this thread and others in the Neat Video Forum.:

Vegas and NeatVideo

Jøran Toresen
johnmeyer wrote on 8/21/2008, 5:32 PM
That thread pretty much confirms my suspicion about the almost complete lack of support for third party software vendors. It is such a shame ...
Bill Ravens wrote on 8/21/2008, 6:04 PM
...and there you have it!
you know, vegas is a pretty unique editing solution, I won't ever deny the pleasure I've had with Vegas.But, I've reached my point of saturation a while back. One thing about hitting oneself over the head with a hammer, it feels damn good when you stop.
You know why Sony gets away with this shyte? because everyone here lets them. Oh well,

I just sent my EX in to Sony for a firmware update. Will I EVER buy a Sony product again? I think NOT!!!!
tonyatl wrote on 8/21/2008, 6:31 PM
Im thinking time to get out, contour xpress shuttle pro hasnt even updated for vegas 8. Plugins work buggy, c is getting later by the day. Its a shame its a great product.
Marc S wrote on 8/21/2008, 6:56 PM
Lack of proper support in Vegas for plug-ins has always boggled my mind. Talk about shooting yourself (and users) in the foot. Here is a disturbing qoute from the Neat Video forum thread.

"(Re-)synchronization of video and audio streams is a job of a plug-in host. Some hosts resync audio and video by taking into account the lag, some hosts avoid the video lag (and audio-video missync) at the source by providing frames to filter plug-ins (as I described earlier). Vegas doesn't do anything. It could, but for some unclear reason it doesn't.

It is a Vegas problem and Sony engineers are aware of it from the beginning. Moreover, they are actively asked (by developers of plug-ins for Vegas) to correct this problem at least since 2004 (there is a written evidence of that in Sony Vegas forums), yet the problem still exists in the latest version of Vegas. Sony Vegas technical support does't answer technical questions for months, even after repeated requests. Strange, isn't it?

Neat Video team"
Grazie wrote on 8/22/2008, 12:18 AM

Firstly, I don't want Vegas hobbled/harmed/crippled to adjust to 3rd party requirements. This must NOT happen. If 3rd party plugs can be developed>installed>work and not affect Vegas detrimentally, then, of course, that would be GREAT! My concern is this: What ever makes Vegas so responsive, easy and productive during the creative process, would then need to be curtailed, reduced, scrambled to allow for 3rd party plug operation to work, then this should ALSO concern us and concern us greatly.

Secondly, I just don't possess and know enough to have an informed programmer's view on this.

However, I can have a User's view. A view which I have created from massing many hours of experience using 3rd party plugins.

I use John Meyer's DeShaker. That makes a 10(?) frame dummy. It also makes a whole track dummy too. Is this part of the Vegas temporal sampling "fix"?

I also use Mercalli and I think that makes a similar dummy track too. Is this also part of the temporal sampling "fix"?

Are these 3rd Party provider's/developer's recognising what THEY have to do to get their product to market for Vegas users?

Is the real issue the Temporal sampling needing to occur? Is this at the core of these issues?

If this is so, could Neat Video do the same? Could NV take a page out of the Vegas "fix-it" book? Is there a Vegas "fix"? Now that would be good to hear!

The other thing that I would place before you all is this: If temporal sampling is the issue, would, whatever presently makes Vegas an easy and creative editing platform to use, be harmed if it was fundamentally changed to allow 3rd party plugs to work with temporal sampling? If this is the case then I would want 3rd party plug developers to work closer to Vegas developers to find a cure. I would NOT want the Vegas platform to be "hobbled" to allow this "temporal" issue to be resolved. Is this the choice we have in front of us?

I now own and use several 3rd party plugins, plugins that are sold as Vegas plugins. I'm guessing I am having the same issues with them that our chum here has with Vegas and NV.

Oh, BTW, I also have Neat Video and think it is awesome. Vegas is part of the Sony Creative Software branding - maybe there can also be a creative solution for 3rd party providers to be part of too?


johnmeyer wrote on 8/22/2008, 7:50 AM
There is no reason why Vegas would have to compromise performance in order to support third-party developers. All that is required is a product manager who understands the importance of third party support: without out it, Vegas loses.

As for Deshaker, that "10 frame buffer" has nothing to do with anything in Vegas, but is how the Deshaker author chose to build his program (and the length of that buffer is dependent on how many frames you choose to use to reconstruct the borders, something I hard-wired into the Vegas script that drives Deshaker).

Since Deshaker needs information on past and future frames, it goes through the video twice (first pass, second pass) and stores information about each frame during the first pass, and uses that during the second pass. Thus, it only requires one frame at a time from Vegas. However, because of the difficult Vegas interface, filters like Mike Crash's filter and the Neat Video filter, which use temporal filtering and require information on adjacent frames, have a very difficult time working properly in Vegas.
Grazie wrote on 8/22/2008, 8:30 AM
Thanks John for bringing clarity to my "bumblings". Apologies for the dreadful mixed metaphor!!

So, Vegas wouldn't be "compromised"?

Is the "require information on adjacent frames, have a very difficult time working properly in Vegas." a result of the fluid way Vegas works, or, in your opinion, is it still something that COULD be surmounted, and still retain Vegas's abilities?

I don't understand that IF Vegas wouldn't be harmed, then why can't we make a way forward?

We must have 3rd party plug creators lining-up to supply their products?

I don't understand . . . . .


ECB wrote on 8/22/2008, 9:06 AM

After spending many years in processor & software development the features that are developed is a business decision that depends on revenue, priorities, and manpower. I would think 3rd party plug-in support (SDK) is the lowest on the projected revenue list.

Ed B
johnmeyer wrote on 8/22/2008, 3:44 PM
After spending many years in processor & software development the features that are developed is a business decision that depends on revenue, priorities, and manpower. I would think 3rd party plug-in support (SDK) is the lowest on the projected revenue list.Actually, it is just the opposite.

To win in business, you have to get help from your friends.

You want potential customers to feel safe making a choice to use your product. You do this by giving them a sense that everyone is using your product.

You want to make a product that can satisfy every possible need. Since every person has special needs, no general-purpose product can meet that goal. However, there are lots of small companies that can extend your product into those little niches.

And you want to win by having your product appear everywhere. Even when your own marketing budget is tapped out, your partners will still be advertising. Even if you don't choose to go to some trade show in Idaho, if you have enough partners, that show will probably be their most important show of the year.

Even a company the size of Sony cannot succeed without partners. Unfortunately, Sonic Foundry never understood this, and apparently the relationship with Sony hasn't delivered "religion" to Madison. It is a strategic mistake of the first order.
farss wrote on 8/22/2008, 4:40 PM
As much as I agree and sympathise with all of the above I'm still left wondering why it's such a huge issue. Sure the SDK needs serious work, sure it's about time to move past the vfw interface and yes I agree SCS needs a good solid kick in the butt for some monumentally dumb decisions.

But how does the problem with Neat Video or Mercalli or any of the temporal plugins impact the creative process. I'm not a creative, I'm an engineer but I think I understand the creative process and I don't see why this hampers the creative process.

You want to sculpt a work in bronze, you don't start by hacking away at a slab of metal. You go through a process, one that it could take years to master. And when your work is finished in wood or wax you send it off to a foundry. If you've been able to visualise how your wax model will look in bronze you have a masterpiece, if not you have expensive scrap metal.

How is the creative process of editing any different. You have some footage that is wobbly or too noisy. You send if off somewhere to get it fixed. Maybe you buy the tools to do it yourself, maybe you send it to a post house. I don't see how this hampers the creative process. Yes it means you need some planning and organisation, isn't that part of mastering any artform.

There's a range of programs that'll handle all the fancy plugins. Buy them, learn to use them, buy the plugins you need, process your footage and then get on with editing. If that's all too hard there's plenty of post houses that can do the work for you. I bump into plenty of people who even though they have the tools to do many tasks they still send the work out, they're smart enough to concentrate their energies on what they're good at. Just as the sculpter could build a furnace and cast his own bronze he doesn't.


johnmeyer wrote on 8/22/2008, 4:58 PM

The creative process is hampered because if I have to use five different tools to achieve my end result, then I spend more time on workflow -- rendering, and then bringing the results into the next program -- than I do on creativity. "Workflow" is the key word here: the fewer the number of steps, and the easier they are to accomplish without workarounds, kludges, approximations, and crossed fingers, the more time I can spend being creative.

So, in my book, having great plug-ins that work within Vegas greatly enhances my creativity.
Noggle wrote on 8/22/2008, 6:14 PM
"having great plug-ins that work within Vegas greatly enhances my creativity"

I agree - and it's much deeper than just plugins. Going back 10 years ago to when I started with audio recording with Cubase VST v1, the BIGGEST complaint from users was, " But I only wanted to make music - I didn't want to become a computer expert!" Too bad, guys!

I spend waaaaay too much time in fine-tuning my system, keeping it clean, backing up, keeping track of S/W bugs and fixes, diving into new learning curves for upgrades/new versions and, of course, continually throwing money at the problems: mostly upgrading H/W - a never-ending battle, that one.

Creativity? What's that?

Marc S wrote on 8/22/2008, 6:33 PM
I think if you compare how plug-ins work in other programs such as Premiere etc. and then compare how the same ones work work in Vegas you'll see that Vegas has serious limitations in this area.
farss wrote on 8/22/2008, 6:58 PM
Agreed workflow is the most important thing. However when I'm editing I try hard not to worry about anything other than telling the story with the elements I have to work with. I don't want to be distracted by color grading, noise reduction, audio sample rates, wobbly camera moves or any of the other issues. Not only do they rob CPU cycles from the task at hand they distract the brain.
Even when it can all be done with Vegas I still don't do it all in the one project if there's anything difficult required. I try to get the grief out of the way, get all my ducks in a row and then get on with the editing part. Then I have a smooth workflow.

Much of the distracting background work can be automated if there's a lot of it. I've never had an issue getting the output of one thing to go into the input of another. Uncompressed video just works. The YUV codec that now ships with Vegas has so far worked in the other apps and other platform I've tried it in.

The one time I needed image stabilisation I did it using Deshaker and your great notes on how to use it (thank you for that). I spent some time tweaking it and while I was doing that I wasn't thinking about how well one shot would cut into the next. Only workaround I had was I couldn't get Deshaker to work with HDV but that was no sweat, uncomp HD worked a treat.

On the other hand it looks like I'll be getting a rather full on job. A 30min doco for broadcast with a 20:1 shooting ratio. For that I really wish Vegas had better tools to help with the task ahead. Asset management is a vital part of the creative editing process and Vegas needs some serious work in that area. I'll have the director sitting over my shoulder barking orders, am I nuts or what even attempting this in Vegas. I carefully avoided answering the question of which NLE I use when asked, the director is used to big Avid systems.

ECB wrote on 8/27/2008, 10:38 AM
I have run additional tests with Neat Video and figured out a workaround for the duplicated and lost frames caused by the Sony plug-in. I added a 10 frame numbered clip at beginning and the end of the clip to be processed. I used numbered leaders so I could see what was happening with Neat Video. I rendered the clip with the number trailers (no Neat Video processing yet) to create a contiguous clip. Next, I added the Neat Video fx and rendered the clip. When I looked at the rendered clip the duplicated frames (causing the problem) were in the numbered leader and the lost frame was now the first frame in the trailing leader. By trimming off the numbered leader and trailer l have the processed video with no frames lost or duplicated and I can add the sound track - no sync issues. Clips with duplicated frames are little more difficult. The duplicate frames may cause Neat Video to throw away the last frame or next to last frame depending on the location of the duplicate frames. It is not difficult to determine which frame was dropped and replace it with a duplicate frame from the processed clip.

Robert W wrote on 9/2/2008, 5:11 AM
Does the Mike Crash Dynamic noise filter shift frames too?