Are you both talking about how many VEG files can be in the project, OR are you talking about how DEEP they can be nested (where one VEG refers to a project that also contains a VEG file on the timeline that refers to another project that has a VEG ... )?

the Tech I talked to only spoke to how many projects were nested (max of 10. Fewer is better). Did not refer in any way to the depth.

Now that you mention it, the 8 main nested vegs in my project each consists of ordinary clips along with a nested veg. So I guess I've been asking for it.

I just now cut the project into two vegs, each with eight nested vegs. Four of these contain a nested veg within them. So I guess I still have more than ten nested vegs.

Oops.

Well, one is rendering now. I'll report when it finishes, one way or the other.

BTW, My PC has a 2.8 GHz P4 and a GB or RAM. Are these antiquated specs?

How hot a machine is desirable these days?

Using the SWAG method, I would estimate that going to a state-of-the-art machine would render twice as fast on the Rendertest veg file.

I have a project with 9 veg files with a total of 9 tracks. I have not had any problems yet. I expect the number of veg files to double. I have a 3GHz w/2gig of memory.

What would "state-of-the-art" specs be today?

And what's SWAG?

It is a high level estimate. A best guess based on the facts you know.

> there should be no more than 10 vegs nested in one project.

Well that explains why my project with 14 veg files is blowing up after 80% rendering! I guess that’s about where I’ve reached the limit. (I never though too many veggies was bad for you) ;-)

> And what's SWAG?

Silly Wild-Assed Guess

~jr

Short Project Crashed.

Exception occurred after 25% of a project with 8 nested vegs including 5 sub-nested vegs, was rendered. Windows Task manager says Mem usafge 227,546k; Peak mem usage 689,528; VM size, 491,492, Page faults 121,867.

render threads: 1; Preview RAM: 400MB; Virtual memory: system managed.(at Sony tech's suggestion.)

Help

Dump:

Sony Vegas 6.0
Version 6.0d (Build 210)
Exception 0xC0000005 (access violation) READ:0x0 IP:0x0
In Module 'vegas60.exe' at Address 0x0 + 0x0
Thread: ProgMan ID=0x778 Stack=0x603E000-0x6040000
Registers:
EAX=16a1ec20 CS=001b EIP=00000000 EFLGS=00010206
EBX=1a0784a8 SS=0023 ESP=0603eec4 EBP=0603f408
ECX=16152128 DS=0023 ESI=16152128 FS=003b
EDX=0603eeec ES=0023 EDI=00000000 GS=0000
Bytes at CS:EIP:
00000000: .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ........
00000008: .. .. .. .. .. .. .. .. ........
Stack Dump:
0603EEC4: 006E51CD 00400000 + 2E51CD (vegas60.exe)
0603EEC8: 16152128 15B60000 + 5F2128
0603EECC: 0C16F670 0C0D0000 + 9F670
0603EED0: 00000000
0603EED4: 0D2A6880 0CCD0000 + 5D6880
0603EED8: 006661D7 00400000 + 2661D7 (vegas60.exe)
0603EEDC: 0603EEEC 05F40000 + FEEEC
0603EEE0: 0C16F670 0C0D0000 + 9F670
0603EEE4: 0D2A6870 0CCD0000 + 5D6870
0603EEE8: 435210B8
0603EEEC: 16152128 15B60000 + 5F2128
0603EEF0: 00000000
0603EEF4: 00000000
0603EEF8: 00000000
0603EEFC: 1A0784A8 19EE0000 + 1984A8
0603EF00: 00000000
> 0603EF9C: 01016779 01000000 + 16779 (vegas60k.dll)
0603EFA0: 0603F160 05F40000 + FF160
0603EFA4: 0603EFD0 05F40000 + FEFD0
0603EFA8: 00000000
0603EFAC: 3FF00000
> 0603EFD8: 77F626D1 77F50000 + 126D1 (ntdll.dll)
> 0603EFDC: 77F62738 77F50000 + 12738 (ntdll.dll)
> 0603EFE0: 77F627C7 77F50000 + 127C7 (ntdll.dll)
> 0603F004: 77F626D1 77F50000 + 126D1 (ntdll.dll)
> 0603F008: 77F62738 77F50000 + 12738 (ntdll.dll)
> 0603F00C: 77F627C7 77F50000 + 127C7 (ntdll.dll)
> 0603F02C: 77F628E9 77F50000 + 128E9 (ntdll.dll)
> 0603F030: 77F62738 77F50000 + 12738 (ntdll.dll)
> 0603F034: 77F627C7 77F50000 + 127C7 (ntdll.dll)
> 0603F06C: 01016F3D 01000000 + 16F3D (vegas60k.dll)
0603F070: 0603F160 05F40000 + FF160
0603F074: 0603F088 05F40000 + FF088
0603F078: 0603F798 05F40000 + FF798
0603F07C: 0D2AEE68 0CCD0000 + 5DEE68
> 0603F0A0: 7C34240D 7C340000 + 240D (MSVCR71.dll)
> 0603F0A4: 7C382358 7C340000 + 42358 (MSVCR71.dll)
> 0603F0B0: 7C36C289 7C340000 + 2C289 (MSVCR71.dll)
> 0603F0B8: 012456BE 01000000 + 2456BE (vegas60k.dll)
0603F0BC: 0603F0F8 05F40000 + FF0F8
0603F0C0: 0603F11C 05F40000 + FF11C
0603F0C4: 0603F138 05F40000 + FF138
0603F0C8: FFFFFFFE
> 0603F0E0: 77E7DD90 77E60000 + 1DD90 (kernel32.dll)
> 0603F0E8: 0107B4F7 01000000 + 7B4F7 (vegas60k.dll)
- - -
0603FFF0: 00000000
0603FFF4: 005024B0 00400000 + 1024B0 (vegas60.exe)
0603FFF8: 0098CDE8 00400000 + 58CDE8 (vegas60.exe)
0603FFFC: 00000000

Just talked to one of Sony's engineers, the "limit" was a surprise to him. My project with more than 10 is rendering away (again) and this is an old, 3.06HT machine doing the work....One of the nested veg files is 26 layers deep.
Hopefully one of the Sony engineers can chime in on this one.

An alternate way of working that I use is to Render to a New Track and preserve the editing connection. I then take each "chapter" render, which I store in a single folder called "Pre-renders" and put them into one master assembly of the whole show.

My master assemblies open quickly and I never have crash problems.

In the event of re-edits, I can reopen the original VEG files with a simple right click, just like the nested VEG files.

What I give up in rendering time, I feel I make up in simply opening the master file.

Does this make sense? Or should I explain in greater detail?

v

Hi Spot -

Saw you mentioned HT in your post - Does Vegas make use of hyperthreading?

Thanks

Bruce

Vegas 5 and later take advantage of hyperthreading. Significantly more optimized in Vegas 6

I would drop your Preview RAM to 128, bump up your threads to 2. Not sure if you have Hyperthreading, but I'm not convinced that Sony's "Threads" correlates to the number of CPUs/Cores.

Reducing Preview RAM should free up more memory to rendering/encoding.

Widetrack,
I recently edited a full length movie in Vegas 6c that had around 50 or so nested vegs without any problems.

Gary G

Sounds strange to me - I've had over 35 .vegs on a TL at once and done em no prob.

P4 3.2Ghz HT

nothin special - a laptop in fact.

and I've had .veg's with over 45 layers in them too, also never a problem.

Don't know what to tell ya.

Dave

Man, this gives new meaning to the term, “conflicting signals”.

Looking at the last few replies:

DSE: My supprot person says everyone knows you shouldn’t have more than ten nested vegs. Spot’s guy never hear of this.

Vicmilt: yes please. More detail. Anything that might help.

fldave: says (like a most people have said) drop preview RAM. My support person said RAISE it to 400MB. “Reducing Preview RAM should free up more memory to rendering/encoding.” Makes sense to me, but even after I registered surprise, she confirmed I should do that.

Fldave (and others) say Raise render threads. But my tech peerson said lower it to 1. And, yeah, I asked if she was sure that was right.

I actually already tried all four permutations of those two parameters and got the same result.

Lots of people have said to raise virtual memory, and it helped prefviously, but now i'm advised to let the system handle it.

And lots of guys have experience with lots of vegs, both across and deep.

I re-downloaded 60d. I think I’ll try reinstalling 60c to see if I can load my 60d project in c and render before reinstalling 60d again.

Would be great if a Sony Engineer could add some clarity.

Thanks to everyone for the feedback.

Just finished rendering the project into four separate chunks in Vegas 60B!

Put them on a fresh timeline and they printed just fine.

I'm attempting to render the whole thing at once overnight, just to see. I used the same settings I'd tried unsuccessfully in 6.0D.

I'm ecstatic I have something I can send to the station (after dubbing to Bvetacam)

It would be great if I could get an authoritative take from a Sony Tech on all the issues brought up here, including the tech support person giving me advice that didn't work and contradicted the experience of many, including myself, in the forum.

I'd like to keep my operating version up to date.

Thanks to all.

WT

So you're saying that your success is NOW with V6b? Yes? Do you use Media Manager? I'm asking as I've had issues with MM since V6c. I used projects with nested veggies in V6b and am now wondering if there is an overhead issue that has appeared within the updates C and D.

Interesting.

Grazie

FWIW - MY PROCESS

1 - I edit a short "chapter" or scene - say 30 seconds to 10 minutes depending on complexity and number of tracks. i.e., in certain commercials I might have a large number of tracks and effects - those scenes are short. In my recent documentary, I stuck to entire scenes as separate items, since they are essentially just cuts and dissolves with minimal optical effect and other garbage.

2- During the course of development, I render the scene to a new track. (Tools>Render to new track). I have the "Save project as rendered material" box checked.

3- I save these renders in a folder called "Pre-Renders" and I name and number them sequentially - "CowboysRange-1, CowboysRange-2, etc."

4- I immediately insert the rendered track into a separate project called "Final Render", which essentially is the Final show. This also gets named and numbered sequentially. I adjust the lengths of the inserts by hand (i.e. making each scene longer or shorter by dragging and trimming the project using ripple (Shift+CTRL+F)

5- All lower thirds and subtitling are done in the "Final render" project but NOTHING ELSE.

6- Each chapter is kept in a separate folder.

SO - at any time I can look at the "Final Render" and see my show. If I want to "fix" any chapter (remix sound, make shorter, fix colors, add effects - whatever - I check the number of the version on the Final Render-12 (for instance), which only has two or three tracks at most. I see that "CowboysRange-22" is the latest permutation of that chapter.
I open the veg either by right clicking and open directly from Final Render-12 or by opening the VEG from it's respective folder, "CowboyRange Folder".
I make the revision as required and "Save to a new Track" as above, bumping the version number to "CowbysRange-23".
I erase the rendered piece "CowboysRange22" from the Final Render-12, and insert the new revision, "CowboysRange-23" by hand, either shortening or lengthening the whole project, as required, and immediately save the Final Render-12, bumping a version number when it seems like sufficient work has been done to warrent a bump.

All this back and forth is a bit unwieldy, but it yields a fast loading, easy to track and virtually bullet proof "Final Render" end product, with a minumum of tracks, easy to fix titles and lower thirds, and quick to layback to tape ease.

If this is too complicated to understand, I'm sorry. It sounds a lot worse than it actually is to do. And I rarely crash.

best,
v
ps - ALL EDITING programs CRASH. Every professional editor knows this - whether Vegas or the top $100K turn-key setup.

Even with the latest computers, we are still stressing the machinery.

Save often. And save with bumped variation numbers, so if you do something really stupid (like incorrectly rippling and knocking stuff out of sync) you can step back a version, and not lose too much time.

Wise counsel Vic.

And yes, I am a serial Veggist AND I render to a new track using the method you outline. There is nothing worse than "loosing" an idea that has "moved along" the edit process and has vanished into the IT Event Horizon. Completely understand what you say.

I use the: MyProject1a > MyProject1b . .approach. Then if I feel that there is a fundamental change in direction that dictates version number change I go MyProject2a. This alerts me to a real change in gear!

Save often and make new versions!

Grazie

Vic & Grazie:

Great info, and no, it's not hard to get--quite clear in fact.

News here is that overnight I rendered the complete project in 6.0b that repeatedly choked and crashed 6.0d.

Did it with the same settings I used last year on an earlier verison in 6.0c, and initially tried in 6.0d:

4 render threads
Preview RAM @ 16
VM set to 3000 MB on BOTH internal drives (how do I know which drive the system uses for this?)

FWIW, ended up with the following from Task MAnager:

Mem Usage: 799,924
Peak Mem Usage: 925,544
VM Size: 1,377,620
Page Faults: 72,620,865


I am too grumpy to wade through the directions for using Media Mangler and its shortcomings, and its sucking up of system resources. It's probably a good thing, but I got a bad case of bleeding-edge burnout a while ago and haven't quite recovered. Thats one of the reasons I like Vegas so much: simplicity, functionality and clarity--most of the time. So I set MM to not load and don't think about it.

BTW How much of your earlier renders do you guys save during the project? I save vegs in a REJECTS folder, but can see a hard drive getting clogged up with a lot of renders.

Also: how much and where do you archive after the project's delivered? Always a source of concern for me.

Can anyone suggest how I can get a tech perspective on this whole from Sony?