new camera

auggybendoggy wrote on 6/27/2007, 7:52 PM
Guys,
I'm hoping to get some learned advice here.

I've started my wed vid business and about 1 year ago we (brother and I) purchased a Sony HDR-FX1. We're pleased considering the price. However now we're about to purchase a 2nd camera.

Heres the 3 we're looking at.
HDR-FX7 - (great price with 4 yr and wide angle from b7H for 2999)
HDR-FX1 - (about 1000 more with all the above)
Cand XH-A1

heres my thougts
fx7: much smaller than fx1 and cheaper. However the review on camcorder info says "NOISEY". low light a bit of a struggle but fair.
also my show a bit of diff look when using fx1 and fx7 in same project.

fx1: OBVIOUSLY our image would be as close as possible in raw format so color correction is minimal (strong reason to go with imo)
large and bulky compared to other 2 cameras. Good image, low light is excellent, noise is fair

xh: More expensive than others BUT image quality is better than both sonys and less noise. excellent low light and a nice size.
However it's a diff make and may look VERY different than sony
in same project.

So my main concern with the favored canon is if used with the FX1 in the same jobs, will it look OBVIOUSLY mismateched?

the canon is a true 16:9 and sony is amporphic.
canon will have a diff color tendencay.

OR

will it be so slight that no one will know the difference?

I'm favoring the fx1 to pair up but if a few people tell me the 2 diff cameras will not be a problem and color correction will still be minimal than I would go with the canon.

I thik the fx-7 is out due to the noise I've read about. Plus the smaller 1/4 cmos I don't care for. the fx1 has 1/3 and I hear thats better especially for low light.

I'm hoping people can help.

Aug

Comments

farss wrote on 6/28/2007, 7:52 AM
the canon is a true 16:9 and sony is amporphic

HDV is anamorphic so that statement is kinda wierd!
The only way a camera can be called anything but anamorphic is if records with square pixels so that cuts out SD DV and HDV.

Image quality from what I've seen between XH-A1 and FX7 is about on par. FX7 should give you around 1 stop more sensitivity over either of those. None of these cameras rate as excellent in low light. Then again a decent on camera light although not cheap isn't expensive either given that it'll outlast several generations of cameras.

If you're doing weddings I'm surprised that you're not looking at a camera with better audio, say the V1U.

PS: I'd not buy the Sony WA for the FX7, it's not wide enough to serve much purpose.

Bob.
TheDingo wrote on 6/28/2007, 8:52 AM
Reading online reviews, the Canon XH-A1 is a much better low-light performer than the Sony FX7. This alone would be why I would choose the Canon over the Sony.

Sony HDR-FX7 Review
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-HDR-FX7-Camcorder-Review/Performance.htm

Canon XH-A1 Review
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Canon-XH-A1-Camcorder-Review/Performance.htm

...From the Sony review:

"In short, the HDR-FX7 has a clear performance wall between 60 lux and 15 lux. When it hits that wall, it really hits that wall, and your footage is toast. The overwhelming dominance of the Canon XH A1 in this arena should be a powerful sway for shoppers torn between the two camcorders."


Spot|DSE wrote on 6/28/2007, 10:44 AM
here is where subjective reviewing vs actual use is important.
The A1, which I really like, is more sensitive than the FX7. This is likely the difference between 1/4 and 1/3 chips, but given that the surface area is nearly identical due to how ClearVid works, it's not *that* big a difference. I can't comment much on the FX 7, but the V1 vs A1...the DSP in the V1 is slightly better than that of the Canon A1. So while the V1 is noisier in low light in terms of actual numbers, it looks very close to the A1, with a slightly more clean, but soft image.
Both have tradeoffs.
All HDV camcorders suffer in low light; don't let anyone tell you different. It's all relative.
Having both the A1 and the V1, each has it's place, and they're both great cams. You can't go wrong with either one, IMO. The V1 has greater vertical rez, the Canon has slightly deeper color.
Either way, much of the argument from one to the other is measurebating vs real world experience.
auggybendoggy wrote on 6/28/2007, 4:47 PM
guys,
I'm pretty set on NOT getting the fx7
however the fx1 got a better review and I like it very much.

My concern with the canon is the color.

will using a fx1 and a xh in a project together, will i be doing HOURS of color correction becasue one is bluish and one redish?

If so I'll just get a fx1 and run the 2 cameras as I trust they will be very close in their scheme (color).

but if people tell me that color correction should not be a problem at all having the 2 diff cams then I'll get the canon.

as for audio,
I'm going into a 16 track digital audio mixer which will mix and record into the camera.
Hopefully, I'll be grabbing the audio on a 24 track yamah hd recorder.

Any help soon would be appreciated as my time is getting VERY near to make the purchase.


Aug
farss wrote on 6/28/2007, 4:58 PM
My view on the color matching is that it can be an overrated issue. I've quite regularly worked on two camera shoot footage where one camera is a PDX10 and the other a 570 (1/2" DVCAM monster) and because one is always tight and the other wide you just don't notice the difference unless you're some measurabator like me who'll split screen the two just to see the difference. I should add that both cameras are WB to match but they sure don't track outside of the white point.

What I'd consider more seriously is two things not mentioned:

1) The build quality of the Canon, it feels weak in this area but don't take my word for it, get a hold of one in your own hands. Check buttons and their position. The LCD screen is also tiny. Useability is an issue that doesn't get enough attention and it's a very personal thing.

2) If you've already got all Sony cameras it makes sense to stay that way. Consider batteries and chargers. They can add a lot to the final cost.
auggybendoggy wrote on 6/28/2007, 10:25 PM
man this is tough between the fx1 and the canon.

I realized the xlr is a plus on the canon but already having the sony is a plus (I assume).

Farss, I do appreciate your advice on the other details.
B&H sells the sonys with these 7 hour batteries and 4 years for descent prices. Once all that is added to the canon it's a bit more priceir than the fx1.

I think my one hesitation is saying "NO" to the fx7.
It's size and weight make me druel. The fx1 is a bit large and heavy and tires your arm in 10 mins or less. Having the lighter camera sure seems like it would be nice. BUT THAT LOW LIGHT HAS ME WORRIED, JUST HOW BAD IS IT?

Aug
farss wrote on 6/29/2007, 3:27 AM
I've only got access to a V1P so I'm working on the basis that it performs the same as the fx7.
Between it and the fx1 you loose 1 stop of sensitivity. And all HDV cameras are between 2 and 3 stops behind the PD170.
But what do all these numbers mean is the real question. They refer to the light level falling on a test card that achieves a certain signal to noise ratio. It's a sort of useful piece of information but it needs to be qualified. No one gets paid to shoot video of test cards!

Many low light shooting scenarios are also high contrast scenes, candlelight, stage lighting etc. What also matters now is dynamic range as much as low light figures. The V1 and I assume the fx7 excels at this. I have seen some V1P footage from a fellow Vegas user shot by a campfire. The fire looks great, not blown out, and the faces are very nicely lit by the fire. The rest of the frame is solid black. It looks fantastic.

Conversely if you're needing to shoot pieces to camera in a candelight reception room I think you're really going to be unhappy with any of the HDV cameras unless you add a little light of your own or move the 'talent' somewhere where there's enough light.

Bob.
CClub wrote on 6/29/2007, 5:26 PM
I'd also be careful about using only the lux numbers to determine which camera you'll buy. I just sold 2 Sony 2100's (the non-XLR versions of the PD170), and to be honest, I often had difficulty as the low light capabilities would produce blown out footage VERY easily if I wasn't continuously staying on top of the exposure control. But often I'd have to close down the aperture so far I began to lose the colors I liked and I'd have to adjust a lot in post. I taped a concert with a fellow using a Canon which wasn't as good in low light, and I actually liked his color and shadowing better than the 2100's which picked up EVERYTHING too brightly. I picked up the v1u a few weeks back, and I've found it easier and I like it better than the 2100 in every lighting situation I've encountered so far. Why? I always have lighting equipment with me, and I can always adjust the lighting up. Having lighting equipment with video is like having a flash with an SLR camera; it's rare you shouldn't plan to have it along for when you need it. Just my humble opinion.
auggybendoggy wrote on 6/29/2007, 8:51 PM
ok the v1u is a glorified fx7 NO?

if that is correct, then what are it's advantages?

Heres one more dynamic that concerns me.

Wireless mics (lavalier). How do I get plugged into a fx-7 or fx-1 which has a mini-mic plug (1/8" i believe)?

I know the v1u and the xh (canon) have xlr? Is this a must for wireless receivers?

I need to purchase the wireless sunday but I want to make the right decision.

Can you guys point me to a good cost effective dual channel wireless system. I would prefer the kind that mounts to the front of the camera.

I'm considering a rackmount dual channel but it would have to go into my alesis mixer and then the mixer into the 1/8 fx-1.

Now if I have the v1u or the canon then what are my options for wireless.

I've also read that the noise on all hd is a bit high and that the fx-7 LOOKS FANTASTIC in bright light, surpassing the canon? Should this be taken into consideration on the v1U?

Gosh, I know I'm dumping alot on you guys but you've all helped me with vegas quite a bit and I trust your opinions alot.
I'm convinced I'll be happy no matter but I still want to be learned of my options before my buy.

Aug