Sarasdad,
I have the Sony TRV-120 (couple of years older and more basid model) that loads from the top. I just love it. It cost me $480 (US) and does everything I need including pass through. Recommend it highly.
Randy

I have the Sony trv 530...I know!! how stupid! Unfortunatly I didn't notice untill I had, had it for a while, how inconvenient and annoying this would be. My old analogue Sony loaded from the side. This is a major flaw, how could they not have forseen this??? Other than that, I love my Sony!
Deb

I have 2 other sony,520 & 310 and they both open from top.I was wanting the 840 for improvements it has made but UNless thet have a side way to attach to tripod I WON'T GET IT

I've got the Sony TVR120 too. It is quite basic but a good working tool. I bought it for £699 nearly 3 years ago and saw it advertised at the same multi store recently for £299!
I wished in those days someone had told me the difference of the amount of data storage between Hi8 and Digital tapes - my editing conversions from the Hi8's would have been loads better.
I've noticed now in the UK stores selling DV 'in' on some cameras. The only thing is it is a lot cheaper (avoiding import tax) to buy with 'in' disabled and then buy a widget to enable.
The only thing I've found with Sony support is it takes ages to get a reply.

Good thread this one... helping me to decide on new cammy.

Yup - the "bottom feeders" really seems a bit of a retrograde step. Have been reading the DV press on this subject - and they can't believe it either.

DV in disabled in UK I believe goes back to the time when our tax laws - ie the Exquequeor didn't want to be done out of the additional tax to be gained on a VCR!

Oh how things have chaged!

Grazie

Sarasdad;

Great Post! I am sure you have saved many people a ton of grief and aggravation!

I too am currently shopping for a new camera, and this adds one more item to my list of questions.

kcarroll

I just want to say one more time the sony cameras are great ,but I can not belive the major design fault. I even bought there remote control tripod and was not able to use with trv840.It will work fine , but if you have to change the tape it takes to long.The other two cameras TRV 310 AND 520 OPEN FROM TOP. WHY CHANGE!

On the subject of DV-in & widgets etc ...
I have a Sony TRV-130. I understand it can be programmed to allow DV-in, but I have to send it away to get it done. Does anyone know a cheap place to get this done?

Miketree - Sorry can't help :(

Grazie

miketree, I enabled mine with a widget from http://www.datavision.co.uk
I think it was about £60. People say it invalidates your guarantee, but as it also disables again if needs be, if you need repairs doing under guarantee just disable it.

I think a few reasons a lot of newer digital cameras load from the bottom is the reduction in size of the camera, mine easily fits in a pocket. Many come with a viewfinder that goes up at a high angle which may interfer with having the tape drawer open on top if it was there. Some come with a shoe for a add on light which also takes up a lot of space. Face it, there simply isn't a lot of room on top anymore if you want a hand sized camera. I hardly think the engineers would have designed them that way on purpose if they could have done it other ways. Just my two cents.

Yes....., you're quite correct. The design of many of the smaller camcorders seems to eliminate the option of "top loading". I feel, however, that the criticism is valid.

I work as a Mechanical Engineer, and while I don't design camcorders, I do have a very clear understanding of how the demands of the Marketing Department can sometimes result in truely inferior products.

When the quest for small size results in functionality being lost, that quest has gone too far. This is what has happened here. Anyone who has watched an amateur videotape knows that tripod use should be strongly encouraged, not eliminated as an option.

Unfortunately, I have no trouble envisioning the scenario as it unfolded: Some annoying 24 year old Business Major attended a Marketing planning meeting, where he was asked what changes needed to be made for next year's product line. He stood up and said;

"All of our competition is going smaller! We have to go smaller! Dude...., small is everything! Tell Design that they have to shrink next year's models 30%......, I don't care how!"

And we find ourselves with camcorders that don't allow a tape change if they're mounted on a tripod.

kcarroll

I agree its a shame, but you missed some points...

How many amateurs have you seen using a tripod stopping to reload? Answer: A pretty rare bird.

Present company of sophisticated users excluded of course. Hows that for kissing up?

For sure companies are marketing driven. Mr. Consumer wants portability. Something to put in his pocket or purse. Tripod? Isn't that something you use with a telescope?

I'd wager having a top loading camera is way down on any wish list for the average consumer. Another reason why maybe should "amateur" movies be longer than a hour? So is there really that much of a seriouos need for top loading? One making longer movies could select the longer play option. What's that, you're not a amatuer? Then what are you doing using a consumer verses a professional camera? Again, I'm just playing devil's advocate.

Ooooh I was waiting for an engineer to pick up on what I said - in a postivie way. And you did K - thanks!

Evreybody (marketeers, engineers, client accountants and accountants and the CEO)should put the customer first -just like the Dark Side! - Oh yeah get on to the Dark Side's company information and particularly the "profile" of those running it - it makes for interesting reading - and it is in the public domain. Yes I'm being cryptic - but have a look.

However, the neat solution for the handy cam is to have something like the "night-vision" gizmos that people wear. BUT instead of having just the lens thingy, you have a DV CCD input wired or signalled to a belt held - I dunno - SOny Walkman type of "box". There is no real need to have the "body" of the Cammy WITH the lens, after all once the "front-end" input is done the tape stuff could be litterally anywhere! OOooooh what a solution I just thought of! Hey anybody talks about this here or somewhere else just remember me! What this means is that the "steadying" necessity goes out the window. No tripods, no shake no wobble. What you See is literally What You get!" - "You Look - You Focus - You Shoot" - The LFS System!

Pheew must go and lie down now.....

Grazie
Grazie

sod the wires, they'd get in the way. Why not use bluetooth or some other wireless protocol.

ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz One day :)

I thought I would muddy up all the great comments and logic that has been presented so far. I really don't think that a bottom loader is that big of a problem. My old Canon ZR takes a long time for the camera to eject the tape and load a new one. So speed or the lack of,is built into the camera just as with the bottom loaders. I have never shot for more than an hour at one time. My batteries would prevent it any way! I only shoot family events and day hikes that I take in the high Sierras. I can easily schedule tape (and battery) changes. For long tapings, then multiple cameras or professional format cameras should probably be used. For my purpose, smaller is better. If quick tape changes are an absolute must then it shouldn't be too hard to make an adapter to facilitate that on a bottom loading camera. Heck, an extender rod should raise the camera off the tripod mount enough to allow tape changes without removing the camera. Hey, that is a neat idea for a new accessory. Anyone want to make a few extra dollars! - Just a different point of view. It doesn't mean its right!!!

I had the toolmakers here at work make one of those extender thingies for me a few years back. It took about $0.03 worth of aluminum, a 1/2" piece of 1/4x20 threaded rod, and about 5 minutes on a lathe. Definately a good investment!

I'm not talking about a DV pocket camera. The Sony digital 8 has not reduced in size in the last 4 years. I have purchased two. Everything still in same place except loading of tape. Quality is top notch. My video has been used for the last 3 years in making commercials for ballet company. Top of the line Digital 8 is neither cheap or strickly for amatuers. I have used for weddings, professioanl ballet companies, rectals etc. You can't tell me that having to disassemble (not only remove from tripod but unscrew an remove mount from camera. . .because you can't even eject with on) to do something as simple as load a tape is not a design flaw.
OH! Was out looking again and noticed a sticker on major competitor. This camera loads from top not the bottom. Think maybe they've noticed flaw too.

Thanks!

I hope you're not suggesting a company with the reputation of Sony would intentionally change something just to annoy customers are you? We're getting a little silly I think. Surely they were aware mounting the camera on a tripod would interfer with changing tapes. I suspect they may have made the design change for other reasons.

You got me curious. I have a Canon ZR45 that's also bottom loading and rather slow to open as another poster suggested his model was. So mounting the camera on the tripod, then unscrewing the holder, taking out the tape, insterting the new tape, putting it back on the tripod timed out to just under 25 seconds.

My point is regardless if top or bottom loading you're going to stop recording for a certain amount of time regardless and the act of changing tape is probably going to upset the camera position enough you'll have to reset anyway. Be that 10 seconds or two minutes the point is you're talking a minor annoyance at best not a design flaw and for sure not a disassembly either. Do you tend to exaggerate that much with other things? I just don't get how anyone could get so po'ed they have to undo a clamp and loosen and tighten a screw. And I thought I was fussy.

all I intended to do was let other people know about it. I am not P.O. Sorry if you think that.I have not said anything about sony product other than what I find A problem. OH,try to change that way in the theatre, dark, and appx 5 to 10 sec !Yes I think a company will change just for apperance sake when they all ready have the best.One other thing Why would you sell $180.00 remote control tripod for it and the mount covers the eject button if not a flaw.Im sorry if this small bit of info disturbed anyone.I do apologize.
happy video

BillyBoy:

In an earlier reply, you suggested that I had missed a couple of points: It appears to me that you yourself have missed several (or are willfully ignoring them).

Your wrote:

>>"I hope you're not suggesting a company with the reputation of Sony would intentionally change something just to annoy customers are you? We're getting a little silly I think. Surely they were aware mounting the camera on a tripod would interfer with changing tapes. I suspect they may have made the design change for other reasons."<<

BillyBoy, no one is suggesting that Sony gets their jollies by intentionally annoying customers. What we were saying is that companies (yes...even Sony) are capable of making marketing and/or economic decisions that are to their advantage, but not necessarily in the best interests of their users.

I was then amazed when you wrote the following:

>>"My point is regardless if top or bottom loading you're going to stop recording for a certain amount of time regardless and the act of changing tape is probably going to upset the camera position enough you'll have to reset anyway. Be that 10 seconds or two minutes the point is you're talking a minor annoyance at best not a design flaw and for sure not a disassembly either. Do you tend to exaggerate that much with other things? I just don't get how anyone could get so po'ed they have to undo a clamp and loosen and tighten a screw. And I thought I was fussy."<<

FUSSY!!!???!!! ....Sarasdad uses his camera to record live performances. I use mine to record Sever Weather Events in my work with a College Meteorology field group. DO YOU REALL THINK THAT 2 MINUTES OF MISSED FOOTAGE IS A TRIVIAL THING??? Just because you don't do serious work with your camera, please don't assume the same about others.

kcarroll

Handbags!