I wouldn't be so cocky... I've watched a few of those FCX vids tonight. There's some pretty good stuff in there that Vegas doesn't have. We rely on Plural eyes to do waveform syncing. This is now built in on FCX. The wavform peaks can be adjusted right on the time line as with Vegas.... but they've taken it a notch further and included clipping colors (the top of the waveform changes color as it enters clipping territory.... it can do that because the peaks redraw in real time. This is just one small example

Vegas has always prided itself as being a top notch audio editor.... well... I don't know about that now.

It seems that this is pretty much what they have done across the board with FCX.... they've taken much of what Vegas had to offer.... and upped it a notch.

IMHO the only features that FCPX has that I would can use in Vegas Pro right away and will bring attract a lot of potential customers are Automated color-matching between clips and Auto-syncing clips via audio waveform.

All Vegas has to do is include these features and we'll still have the the best NLE for the price.

I just saw the Zi8 for less than $95. The prices of decent video cams are comming down enough that almost any semi serious videographer can have a multi-cam setup. Not sure what the geniuses at the Vegas think tank are working on but I'd sure hope that they take a look at what the competition is doing.

We need a third party to write sync, grading, and color correction plugins/scripts for Vegas. We need DirectX and OpenCL from the ground up. We need to stop scaring away potential partners like Red Giant by clinging onto deprecated technologies like VFW. And by 'we' I mean SCS.

Well, because of all the hype going on, I just had to watch the video of the Apple presentation. Let me say from the outset that I've never even used a Mac, let alone FCP. But from the presentation, I can see that the editing features in FCP X, are six of one, half dozen of another compared to Vegas.

There are some neat features, not all relating to the editing process. The media organization system seems quite interesting. the ability to collapse portion of an edit sequence is very cool, as it doesn't require another program instance. There's some room for thought for SCS in these areas.

They look like they're trying to kill the notion of tracks, but their demo FCP X project had a lot of vertical 'stacks'. (Of course, not nearly as bad as the one they showed in the old FCP - how horrifying.)

We can do the same in Vegas (stacking), but usually I reserve that for overlays - not sure how FCP X handles that. We do non-destructive clips like greased lighting in Vegas - it's not hard to place those clips at the same (or main) level. And we always have "expanded" track layers, if you absolutely need them, or your glasses are failing.

Not particularly impressed with their keyframing UI, although beziers are a plus.

We've always had the ability to change video speed, we're not limited to even divisor rates, and we can 'keyframe' it via an envelope.

Using different media types directly appears to be new for them - but Vegas never knew what 'the word conform' meant in the first place.

The 'magnetic' time line isn't impressive. For sure, keeping audio in sync with video is crucial, but we've been doing it for years in Vegas - it's called grouping - and we can group (sync) any number of media events, not just audio to video. We've always had 'sample' accurate sync - (quantize) but we can slip it anytime we want.

Also, the audio represention relies on the vertical 'stack' paradigm - it appears to be just cuts. So when audio tracks collide, they just move it to a new track, uh, er, level, I suppose, which means since there is no notion of a track, it's just eye candy.

They do seem to allow you to create simple volume envelopes, and simple fades - but nothing I saw indicated any crossfading. Audio doesn't appear to be their forte.


A lot of what was presented are features which we've had for years in Vegas - presented as the newest hottest thing since toasted bread. Other so-called features are really just eye candy. Better mouse handling they say, but not sure if it's up to Vegas' level. But the media management has my eye.

Still, no reason for me to consider a Mac. For all those who decry that Vegas only runs on a PC, let's us not forget that it 'only runs on a Mac' is Apple's battle cry.

http://www.eyeonline.com/Web/EyeonWeb/default.aspx

On sale for $995 ( looks like it )

Vegas is a DAW and a NLE, fusion is what you use for everything else.

FCP and its motion garbage are for amateurs.

That above is the biggest news of this NAB, not some lame upgrade to a prosumer NLE like FCP.

I'm a little irked that FCP seem to now have what looks a bit like a Histogram "wave" form under the video clips. I suggested something like that to Sony a long time ago.

OK, so a more sober look at this and I want to temper my response. I'm realizing now that what I may be looking at here is a much prettier version of Vegas. And at the cost of things I love about Vegas. I mean, do we really want to LOSE tracks? And has anyone watched this demo and then played with the latest iMovie for a few minutes? I honestly have always hated iMovie 11, and FCP X, in many ways, is iMovie, for the professional world.

The more I think about it, FCP X may be an amazing opportunity for Sony to tout the features of Vegas, to the FCP crowd, that Vegas has had for years, that FCP X is just now incorporating. There will be many traditional FCP editors out there, who once the initial excitement wears off, may be very put off by this radical redesign.

Here's another take on FCP X and the features it offers that have been available for years on other NLEs:

http://www.mikejones.tv/journal/2011/4/13/new-fcp-x-is-really-not-so-new.html

It's telling, the number of times Vegas makes an appearance in this list.

never really sure about this mac vs pc thing when it comes to nle's.

if the software does what i want it to, then on what system it actually operates is totally immaterial - rather like modern cars, a whole range of manufacturers now build a variety of cars on the same chassis with the same engine - the only real difference is what it looks like from the outside. pretty much the same with nle's, who cares what system it runs under if it does what YOU want?

that said, i'm hoping scs FIXES things before trying to squeeze some new function / facility in 10d because i'm going to have a more serious look at the new fcp.
having played with adobe, avid, edius i can see some of their strengths and weakness, and how there isn't anything (really outstanding) they can offer that i can't do with vegas (one way or another). the only obvious advantage is they're pc compatibility...

many years ago i started editing on mac's - media 100, avid, etc., so i am aware of their limitations (software / hardware) - but that made no difference to the fact that they were great nle's in their day. if i have to look at an overpriced hardware box to run a nle that's clearly what i need, i will do.

i make my living from video production and if something works for me better than vegas, then it'll get my money, regardless of os.

Actually the whole thing is kind of flattering. It's crystal clear (to me anyway) that Apple stuck a copy of Sony Vegas on their machines and played with it for a while. Some of the similarities are uncanny. The audio fade in/out that Mark points out above is an EXACT carbon copy of Vegas's method

I would say the biggest thing still missing is scripting. Boy would I hate to have to live without that.

"I would say the biggest thing still missing is scripting"

Actually I'm reasonably certain that FCP does support it via the OS, I think something like the way Windows supports automation... which Vegas doesn't do at all.

As for the whole idea of Apple stealing ideas from Vegas, I think we need to get a bit of a grip. If you want to go down that road you'd probably find that just about every new feature in Vegas has been "stolen" from some other app.

If I was to name anyone Apple would be looking over their shoulder at it'd be Adobe, just look at the graph near the beginning of the presentataion. Vegas has such a small market share it doesn't even rate a mention but Ppro's share is increasing. Add into that the fact that Apple employs a few ex Adobe people. Some of the tech in FCP X feels like something out of Adobe's research labs to me.

Also worthy of consideration is that at last year's NAB Supermeet both Adobe and Avid were there pushing their latest and greatest and this years lineup was originally advertised as much the same. At the last minute and much to the ire of many Apple users Apple decide to show up to hawk FCP X and had everyone else pushed off the program. When you think about it, pretty amazing that last years Final Cut Users Group's NAB Supermeet was in part about FCP's competition.

Bob.

Maybe it's just me, but the whole NLE market is gravitating to the lowest common denominator, which is YouTube/smartphones/ tablets. A lot of the supposed changes to Premiere Pro CS5.5 also seemed geared to mobile & portable devices and now Apple seems to have streamlined Final Cut to better suit that market segment also. I should add that I don't see this as a bad thing, as it appears that sophisticated video editing has hit the mainstream.

>>>>, just look at the graph near the beginning of the presentataion<<<<

All of those graphs are completely made up. Apple has no clue nor does it care what the actual numbers are. They simply draw some cute graphs with random numbers to back up their marketing lies. You can count on Apple to do that more than you can count on death and taxes.

"Actually I'm reasonably certain that FCP does support it via the OS, I think something like the way Windows supports automation... which Vegas doesn't do at all."

If I were to choose scripting via external automation or scripting via internal interface, ala .NET, I'd go with the latter. There's limits on what you can do via an external OS-based script without going into a complex, one-off script language.

The point is, why do that when you have ready made languages available, and a more complete interface to the application's internals. Look at all the wonderful Vegas Addons - which you can create with nothing more than a text editor. (This was direct inspiration for me - an application I developed included the ability to use .net code as scripts - I basically cribbed Sony's idea)

I definitely agree that Vegas isn't Apple's target, it's Premiere.

I'm sure Vegas has 'borrowed' features from others - in the software industry, we all stand on the shoulders of others. But still, Vegas is rather unique in bringing so many of them together in one place.

I kind of like Vegas' market niche - it means we don't get smoke blown up our backsides they way Apple folks do - I gotta have some measure of dignity...

"Here's another blog with more details:

www.photographybay.com/2011/04/12/final-cut-pro-user-group-supermeet-liveblog/

2 million installed Final Cut users. Final Cut growing at twice the overall rate of NLE growth."

The FCP growth rate is a bit of "playing with numbers". It may or may not have anything to do with the installed base of NLEs. I think I read recently that Hyundai is the world's fastest growing automaker. Same theory.

" i'm hoping scs FIXES things before trying to squeeze some new function / facility in 10d"

Amen. And improve the bins. And make Paste-Attributes attribute-selectable. All the "feel-good" (and broader productivity and client-inspiring) trivia.

That's all I was going to say but...

To restore the karma, in v11 why not "be inspired by" some things back from FCP? Like showing group connections is cool (though what happens when grouped events don't overlap in time?), as is the magnetic repulsion bit and collapsable/compound tracks. Vegas's equivalent of the latter is nested [.veg] files, definitely useful but some of us are a bit uncertain over relying on these (just as FCP7 folk have been over their Sequence equivalent), so again, just a case of making what's there really solid & reliable & fluid.

Given FCPX is cheaper than their previous versions, and the inclusion of the Apple Store interface into their Mac OS, I wonder if they're going to follow the buy-a-module (or even rent-a-module) suggestion I made on this forum a year or three ago. People prefer to part with their money in small increments. In any case, non-Hollywood outfits can't justify big spends for one-off's. Could Amazon etc. act as Sony Vegas's equivalent of Apple Store?. Maybe even follow the DAZ-type business model and make the main engine free... (or at least free with a Sony camera etc.) and money on the "residuals".

Future demand is for multi-faceted releases, to "explode" to all manner of devices, watches, phones, tablets, games boxes whatever. And for cost-reduction and opportunism, there may be a crowd-sourcing element to production, implying the need for an ability to cope with ranges of abilities/professionalism as well as formats. Sony Vegas does address this to some extent, and originally stole a lead, but all pro NLEs are having to embrace this wider world. Ubiquity is the future.

Well. FCPX is truly out, and Vegas Pro 10... Blows it out of the water. If you look at the barrage of complaints that pros have for FCPX, many of these people would be MUCH better off taking a look at Vegas Pro. Especially given the long list of professional tools stripped from the new version of Final Cut that Vegas does have.

If you look at the user comments on the Apple Ap Store site, FCP X is not popular with pro editors and they're pretty much forming an angry mob. Most are vowing to ignore the release and just stick to FCP 7. The trouble with that is, Apple shut off support for it effective today.

This ain't going to be pretty.

I run Vegas under BootCamp on a Mac and I love it. I might download the new FCP X on the Mac OS side because it looks intriguing, and for $300 I won't go broke if it tanks. I sold my copy of FC Studio 3 months ago because it just collected dust.

One of my former employees is trying to get his money back from Apple on this one. He posted via Facebook that he can't open any of his old FCP files. He is Mac only and not hip to the bootcamp thing, so he is eyeballing Avid and Adobe Suites for the next move.

Another FCP thread where Vegas fanboys puff out their chests and ridicule Apple's product.

Gee, what a surprise.

It's got my attention. Sony better watch out with this one.
I agreed with everybody...We saw this coming. At another forum, I always said" Mac video comes out cleaner.

Now this will give me a chance to buy a Mac and be proficient in both. I'd waited for the right time.

I want to personally thank Steve Jobs for validating and translating Vegas Pro on the MAC. Even though the translation is imperfect and inferior to the original, it's the thought that counts.