Newbie questions on VHS to DVD

MilesCrew wrote on 1/16/2008, 6:19 PM
I recently bought an older Panasonic AG-5700 on eBay to start transferring some old VHS. I transferred the first one tonight and it gave rise to a few questions that I thought I'd throw out...

a) When I capture the VHS, what is the "source" resolution: 720x480 or 640x480? I've always been confused at this because non-widescreen TV's are 4:3 (640x480) right? And DV from a camcorder is usually 720x480 right? What exactly should I capture at?

b) At many points during the capture, the top third of the picture will kind of flicker and make the color look distorted as if it loses one of the RGB channels for a split second or something. Is this from the tape being old or could this be the VCR heads needed cleaning or something? If it's the tape, then I can live with it. If it's the heads, I guess I should get a head cleaner tape?

c) Once I transfer these tapes, what is the best (for a newbie) way to clean it up a little? It actually looked pretty good (relatively of course) but should I do something to it anyway before putting it on DVD? I saw the color correction effect, but it looked kind of intimidating. :)

Thanks!

Comments

johnmeyer wrote on 1/16/2008, 8:14 PM
When I capture the VHS, what is the "source" resolution: 720x480 or 640x480?

Use 720x480.

DV doesn't use square pixels. Pixel aspect ratio os 0.9091. 720 * 0.9091 = 654. TVs have overscan, so that's why 654 vs. 640.

At many points during the capture, the top third of the picture will kind of flicker and make the color look distorted as if it loses one of the RGB channels for a split second or something.

Can be dirty heads or bad tape, or lots of other things. It might be improved by using a time base corrector, if you can find one. I briefly looked at the manual for this VCR and don't see a built-in TBC. Also, if you can find an "edit" switch, make sure it is turned on. However, since this a pro deck, it may not have the stupid "enhancement" circuit found on consumer decks. This must ALWAYS be turned off when doing any sort of video transfer. EDIT: What I wrote is confusing. You want to defeat the "enhancement" circuit, if the deck has one, and turning the Edit switch ON defeats the enhancement circuit.

Once I transfer these tapes, what is the best (for a newbie) way to clean it up a little?

The biggest issue with VHS tapes is chroma noise. I don't know of any plug-in for Vegas, but you can use CNR with AVISynth. You can use Mike Crash's filter for getting rid of some of the "dot" noise, but don't turn it up too much, or you won't like the results.
MilesCrew wrote on 1/17/2008, 6:43 AM
Thanks for the reply. Here's an update on stuff I've tried since the post.

1) I tried the same tape in a TV with built-in VCR and the top portion color problem wasn't there. So, the tape seems to be OK.

2) I tried the same VCR hooked into a TV via S-Video and the top portion color problem wasn't there. So, the VCR seems to be OK.

I guess the only thing that leaves me with is the capture card that I bought. It's a Turtle Beach Advantage ADX that I bought on Newegg. The capture card also has a RCA video input, but I couldn't try that as the VCR only has S-Video out and a BNC video out. I wonder if there is a BNC to RCA adapter?
rs170a wrote on 1/17/2008, 6:57 AM
I wonder if there is a BNC to RCA adapter?

Certainly!!
Check your local Radio Shack (or whatever they're calling themselves these days).
Should be around $5.

Mike
Former user wrote on 1/17/2008, 6:57 AM
The problem might be there, but the TV is not showing it due to overscan. Most TVs, by design, cut off about 10% of the picture all of the way around. When you see the picture on your computer capture, you are seeing the full raster so the edge imperfections show up.

Dave T2
MilesCrew wrote on 1/17/2008, 7:22 AM
Thanks everyone for the replies. Now that I've narrowed it down to the capture card, I just found this Q/A on Turtle Beach's support site...

Q: When I capture video, I get purple "washes" or "flickers" across the top of the frame. This happens with my home 8MM analog and VHS analog captures.

A: If this happens after you have finished capturing during playback, it might be because you selected too high parameters for your Video Capture: For example, if you used Mpeg 2 and the best (highest possible) recording quality. Try to lower the settings until your system is comfortable with them.

This sounds exactly like my problem except for the fact that it even does the wash/flicker during preview playback not just capturing. So, I just put in a support email to them regarding this. We'll see what they say. I think it's a cop-out to say "turn down the recording quality".

On that note, in the case of this capture card just sucking royally, what do most people use for capturing analog video to Sony Vegas? If I can get a refund for this, it'd be about $100.

Thanks everyone!
baysidebas wrote on 1/17/2008, 7:46 AM
If you have a digital camcorder you can probably use its analog pass thru capabilities [analog in to the camcorder, digital firewire out into the computer].
MilesCrew wrote on 1/17/2008, 7:51 AM
Yeah, I thought about that before I bought the card. However, I've got an old Sony Digital 8 Handycam which does not do passthrough. Needless to say, a new camcorder is on the list for this year's purchases. :)
riredale wrote on 1/17/2008, 9:36 AM
Just a little quibble about the pixel aspect ratio discussion:

The "654" number has nothing to do with overscan. Rather, it illustrates the fact that DV is not based on a 4:3 presentation, but actually very slightly wider. This also explains why a still photo cropped to exactly 4:3 and brought onto the DV timeline will show very narrow vertical black bars on the left and right sides--the photo may be 4:3, but the preview window is a bit wider than that.

As for overscan, I would love it if vendors offered a means of adjusting or eliminating overscan on contemporary sets. I think one company does, but can't remember who. And video played on PCs with programs such as WinDVD or PowerDVD or as seen on YouTube have no overscan at all.
baysidebas wrote on 1/17/2008, 12:13 PM
"Yeah, I thought about that before I bought the card. However, I've got an old Sony Digital 8 Handycam which does not do passthrough. Needless to say, a new camcorder is on the list for this year's purchases. :)"

But it does have analog in and firewire out? If so, consider recording the analog to the 8 tape and then play it back out via the firewire. Additional hassle, not to mention .5x real time throughput [plus additional overhead] but at least it would get the job done.
MilesCrew wrote on 1/17/2008, 3:43 PM
No, it does not have any input on the camcorder. Only outputs. Thanks.
JohnnyRoy wrote on 1/17/2008, 3:55 PM
> what do most people use for capturing analog video to Sony Vegas?

I have a Canopus ADVC300 but you can get by with an ADVC110 or an ADS Tech A/V Link (which I also use). These three devices produce DV AVI files. For tapes that are going direct to DVD with no editing I use an ADS Tech Instant DVD 2.0. It captures MPEG2 with a hardware MPEG encoder on board so it captures at full quality without any problems. They don't make that model anymore but I believe the new model is the DVD Xpress DX2. Same idea.

~jr
johnmeyer wrote on 1/17/2008, 5:09 PM
I just had to re-do over eight hours of VHS captures because I decided to try a shortcut and encode directly from my capture card to MPEG-2, using the external MainConcept encoder, which can capture and encode to MPEG-2 in real time. The problem I had was that the capture card did not set the levels correctly. Even after I realized the problem (the details were all gone in the highlights), and went back to the video capture controls, I could not get it right.

By contrast, I have captured with two different DV cameras that have analog pass-through and when I queue up the DVD that I eventually create from this video and run the original tape, and then do a quick A/B/A/B test between the original and the DVD, I am hard-pressed to tell any difference (unless I do restoration, in which case the DVD looks a LOT better than the original).
Douglas Cleary wrote on 1/18/2008, 9:30 AM
I have been thinking of doing some conversions as well. I have a HV10 and a Hauppauge tuner card (with hardware encoding). Based on what I have read it would seem that doing the pass through on the HV10 would be the best route. Any comments?
johnmeyer wrote on 1/18/2008, 9:48 AM
Based on what I have read it would seem that doing the pass through on the HV10 would be the best route. Any comments?

Wow, I didn't realize until I just read the HV10 brochure that this camera has analog pass-through. Yeah, definitely that is the way to go.
MilesCrew wrote on 1/18/2008, 10:42 AM
Well, it looks like Turtle Beach support is a dead end. They told me to try a different PCI slot because it's a conflict. I tried that and it still does the washout. Then they told me to basically trim down Windows as much as possible, uninstall everything, reinstall everything, yadda yadda. I'm an IT guy by profession so I know that stuff like that will sometimes work for software, but this is a hardware issue. Whatever.

I'm going to see if Newegg will give me a refund, and I'll probably get a Canopus ADVC55 or something. It's more money, but the Canopus products seem to have great reviews.
baysidebas wrote on 1/18/2008, 11:05 AM
"I'm going to see if Newegg will give me a refund, and I'll probably get a Canopus ADVC55 or something. It's more money, but the Canopus products seem to have great reviews."

They are a worthwhile investment if you have critical transfers to do. I have an ADVC 300 that has to be seen to be believed in the miracles it performs. Some old tapes that play back with so much jitter [I monitor the input to the ADVC] come out pristine on the digital output end, I couldn't believe my eyes when I first saw this.
MilesCrew wrote on 1/18/2008, 11:30 AM
Thanks for the input. It's always good to hear good reviews of a product before you buy it. I know the ADVC55 is lower-end, but I'm sure it would do fine for just doing my old home videos. I don't think I can justify $450 for the ADVC300 for doing home movies. :)
TGS wrote on 1/18/2008, 11:55 AM
One last avenue of thought.
Buy a used Sony Digital 8 at Ebay
Certain models have pass-thru and they also have a Time Base Corrector and Digital Noise Reduction. VERY important features to help keep you from losing frames or weird noise
They are becoming hard to find, but models I can think of off hand that have it are:
DCR TRV-120, DCR TRV-520. DCR TRV- 720 (730 & 740) DCR TRV-820
other models have it too, but you need to download the manual to find out.

These are becoming old and the 700 and 800 series still command a pretty good price. The 120 is probably cheapest and oldest. I picked one up a couple of years back for $115. The camera still works, but even if it fails, as long as I can turn the power on, the pass through should work

Also, don't buy from anybody with a rating of less than 99% approval, best to buy from private party with 100% rating. (providing they've sold a lot of items)
baysidebas wrote on 1/18/2008, 12:17 PM
"The camera still works, but even if it fails, as long as I can turn the power on, the pass through should work" indeed, if you can find one with a dead tape transport, you should be able to get it for a pittance.
MilesCrew wrote on 1/18/2008, 12:44 PM
So, before I consider that route answer me this. Are you POSITIVE that the passthrough would still work if there were tape problems or something? For instance, there is a DCR-TRV720 right now on eBay says it has an error code and won't load a tape. I figure you might know since you have one. I just want to make sure before I spend the $40-50 for it.
TGS wrote on 1/18/2008, 2:18 PM
I'm positive it will work in most cases, but you never know

email the guy and ask him if it powers up and if he can access the menus, then you may as well ask if he knows if the inputs and FireWire (iLInk) works. Then just straight out ask if the Pass Through works. Although a private party may not know what you're talking about unless you explain pass through.

A camera shop should know

A private party may have never used it, in which case ask about being able to return it if it doesn't work
That's the one advantage of buying from a private party with a 100% rating, most consumers barely use their cameras. If they've sold a lot of items and still maintain a 100% rating, they are usually very honest
Most camera stores will separate accessories and resell and they also play stupid. (IE: they don't have time to inspect everything, so they don't know the answer to your question) I would avoid that place (avoid 'BargainLand')
craftech wrote on 1/19/2008, 5:02 AM
Why don't you try this first:

Go to Walmert and buy the Magnavox MWR10D6 DVD Recorder currently selling in store for $49.95.

Here are some user reviews.

It has somewhat mixed reviews and requires decent media (which I am sure you probably already use) , but if it doesn't work for you just return it through Walmart's liberal return policy.

John
Chienworks wrote on 1/19/2008, 6:14 AM
Yep, i just picked up one of those units last weekend. It's amazing how well it captures. It also produces the only DVDs i've ever been able to import into Vegas with perfect audio/video sync. At the 2 hour speed it rivals the DV captures through my SONY A/V->DV converter and at the 1 hour speed it surpasses them. Operation can be as simple as pressing the record button to start and the stop button to end. It even has a built in tuner and modulator, very rare in any DVD machine at any price.

My only disappointment is that it doesn't have a DV input. Then again, the cheapest units that do have DV in cost 150% more, so i'm not complaining. Gonna go pick up another one for the living room soon ...