Nice long chat to Sony ...

Darren Powell wrote on 3/8/2008, 1:00 PM
I spent an hour on the phone to Sony in the US from Sydney Australia yesterday trying to find out what the hell was going on with the render problem.

I gave up on tech support after being on hold for 20 minutes costing me an effing fortune ... so I dialed Customer service, hit some random numbers for an extention I didn't know ... and got through to a human ...

Granted, this guy was VERY helpful ... tech support wasn't his department but he listened and started working on tracking down any information he could on the problem as I described it ... basically can't render jack-s**t in Vegas if your project is a big one ...

He called through to tech support and got a link for a 'known issue' which he read to me in detail ... basically if you try to render a large (whatever that is) m2t project ... the memory usage continues to go up and up until Vegas crashes. (There was no mention of Cineform ... of course ... but you can bet your boots the same applies to NEO projects etc. ) Yep, that's my problem ... I watch it every day in Task Manager ... sometimes I get to 100% ... most times I don't ... Vegas either disappears off the screen or I get 'sorry for the inconvenience ...

I asked if there was a fix on the way ... no infomation about a fix ... but this guy assured me that Sony were working on it ... then he apologised for the inconvenience on behalf of Sony ... which I thought was a very damn fine thing to say. Totally useless in relation to getting my film out of Vegas ... but whoever he was (wish I got his name) he was very very helpful.

So, that's the latest info I've been able to get from SCS ... they know that Vegas has memory issues ... and they reckon they're working on it ... but how long we have to wait to get a fix ... nobody knows.

Darren Powell
Sydney Australia

Comments

CorTed wrote on 3/8/2008, 1:14 PM
Thanks for the update Darren.
I noticed yesterday that Forumadmin responded to your original crash post.
To me it is also a bit mistifying that Sony keeps ignoring/downplaying the memory issue. To me (and I'm sure a number of users) there is clearly something wrong with the way Sony handles memory.
the problem must be difficult to fix, as they (SCS) is reluctant to update the users on it.
I know now there will be numerous people responding saying they do not have a problem, I think they need to increase their project size within their working memory space.

I am not here to rant against Sony, I just want them to fix what to me are legitimate memory issues and render problems so we can all use the wonderful software that it is.

I hope for your sake and your movie they do this quickly

Ted
farss wrote on 3/8/2008, 1:44 PM
This is exactly inline with what I was told some time ago. The local trainers are aware of the problem and are telling people not to use quad cores. It's just a pity that so much grief had to be endured to learn what was already known.
My one and only complaint is why wasn't this information readily available to ALL of us.

Bob.
John_Cline wrote on 3/8/2008, 1:47 PM
I use a Quad core and work on very long HD projects, I've not had any crashes or memory issues.
CorTed wrote on 3/8/2008, 2:47 PM
Thanks John, but I rather hear more from people that do have problems so we may find more common threads

Ted
winrockpost wrote on 3/8/2008, 3:27 PM
I also use a quad with vista and am not getting the crashes,, i do see rather high memory useage and have vegas hang on me a couple a times, and then clear. reboo (pia) and all is fine. but no all out crashes/no cineforrm or protitle being used here. Feel sure there is a memory issue goin on
VMP wrote on 3/8/2008, 3:54 PM
I have had some Vegas crash problems with large projects.

It was very frustrating not to be able to get the project out of Vegas.
After hours and hours of trial and error I have found ‘a’ solution.

My projects usually have around 100 tracks.
70% of them being video tracks.

These tracks all contain video and audio FX.

Some weeks ago Vegas crashed repeatedly on about 52% render length.

It did not matter what codec, resolution, preset, etc.

I have isolated and gone through all the events and tracks but could not find any overlapping, clipping etc.
So I knew that it was not the 'arranging of the events' that caused the problem.
Finally I decided to render the audio first, then the video!

And that worked for me.

Somehow after seeing the numbers of audio and video tracks and their FX it seems logic for me that Vegas has much difficulties to render both.

Although Vegas should handle it I guess.

To make sure that the final rendered file has both audio and video, I rendered the audio to a new track.

Then muted the rest (Using solo option)

And then rendered the final AV file.

During the trouble shoot proces
I realized that I have had the same problem with a previous version of Vegas on my previous computer.
I have then solved the problem in a similar way.

Maybe you could try a similar approach to your problem?

VMP
winrockpost wrote on 3/8/2008, 4:21 PM
............My projects usually have around 100 tracks......
What ? holy @#$% ,,
StormMarc wrote on 3/8/2008, 4:27 PM
Darren,

I've been working around this problem for a while now by rendering in segments. However last night I just tried a full render of a Cineform HDV project running about 26:00 and yep it stuck at 86% and just kept counting and counting and was difficult to shut down. Bummer... I was hoping this was fixed in the latest version. Thanks for the update and at least they know its a problem.

Marc
NickHope wrote on 3/8/2008, 9:25 PM
It seems to me that most of the crashes people are having are when they are working with Cineform files or with files decoded by the Main Concept MPEG codec (mcplug.dll). In other words "third party" codecs.

To check what codec is being used right click on the file in the Vegas Explorer window, choose "Properties", and scroll to the plug-in section.

Perhaps you guys with HDV problems could recapture or render your clips to m2t files decoded by Sony's own m2t codec (m2tsplug.dll)?

This is what I have done and now things are stable. No crashes and I can render big projects. Admittedly I am on x64 XP with 4Gb RAM, so this may be helping me.

In my case I temporarily went back to 8.0a and smart rendered 3500 program stream "HDV" files (that had been rendered in Womble) to transport stream HDV files using the Veggie Toolkit so that they would be decoded by the Sony codec instead of the Main Concept one.
UlfLaursen wrote on 3/8/2008, 9:48 PM
Thanks for haning in there Darren - you sure don't give up that easy. :-)

/Ulf
VMP wrote on 3/8/2008, 10:42 PM
"............My projects usually have around 100 tracks......
What ? holy @#$% ,, "
-------------------------------------------------------------
Lol ;-), Did I scare you winrock?

And thats after cleanup..
My current scene that I am working on has about 200 Tracks.
They all contain little composition elements with their own track fx, motion track info etc..

No need for after effects this way ;-))

If I put a ' very anamorphic widescreen' vertically as my monitor I can make a screenshot for you ;-).

VMP
deusx wrote on 3/8/2008, 11:06 PM
>>>My projects usually have around 100 tracks.<<<

That's application abuse, you should be arrested.
( you realize unlimited tracks is just a PR term, they don't really mean it, not only Sony, nobody means it )

Seriously, isn't it easier to split a project into a few shorter segments. If you go to adobe or avid ( or any pretty much ) forum, you'll find that all NLE's experience these memory problems.

For me at least, it's easier to split things up, and do it that way. I can't see how 100 tracks of anything would make it easier. I'd be wasting time just looking for the right track to select and work on it.
Darren Powell wrote on 3/9/2008, 5:45 AM
Thanks for all the feedback and again, lots of people being supportive, this forum is a great resource.

I know some people are lucky enough to be able to work in Vegas Pro 8 with no problems, but lots of other Vegas users are describing 'the known issue' as its been defined any number of times in this forum - (the 'crashes, exceptions, sorry messages, black frames, red frames, hangs while the counter keeps ticking over' etc etc etc) ... for us to settle on the fact that there is a problem ... I've confirmed directly with Sony via my very helpful Customer Service Dude that the problem is a 'known issue' ... and that Sony are 'working on it' ...

So, that's it from me after all these months ... I have my little 'work arounds' ... my film project is split into small bits, about 10 minutes each ... that's nine .veg files for my film as it stands ... the renders work sometimes ... when they don't - I render the video and audio seperately ... if that doesn't work - I copy everthing to my Dual Xeon machine and try to render in Pro 8 from there ... all in all it's a major PITA ... when all I really want to do is edit my project (with as many audio tracks as I want - thankyou very much) and render the thing out as a HDV file ... with a DVD version for my client ... and a .wmv and .mov version for the website ...

So, until that magical day arrives when I fire up Vegas Pro 8 and my web update reminder thingo says ... Guess what Daz, Vegas Pro 8c is available for download and it includes a fix for the 'running out of memory thing on your Quadcore' ... would you like to download it??

I'll go woo hoo ... and everything will be better.

'til then this is Darren Powell signing off from Sydney Australia ... Good Night and Good Luck.

D.
Darren Powell wrote on 3/9/2008, 5:56 AM
Hi Ted,

Thanks for your post ... I can't find the ForumAdmin response for some reason ... can you link me to it if you get a chance?

Cheers,

Darren
ushere wrote on 3/9/2008, 6:29 AM
vmp - would love to see a short clip of your finished 100 track exploit.

leslie
CorTed wrote on 3/9/2008, 11:37 AM
Hi Darren,

Here is the post I was referring to:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=581783&Replies=12

Ted
Jim H wrote on 3/9/2008, 9:25 PM
VMP,

Another vote to see a snap of your 200 track project and a short rendered clip. Actually what you need to do is a screen capture animation scrolling down the tracks with a VO explaining what you're doing over 200 tracks....that is really amazing to hear.... software abuse....lol...that's a good one.
VMP wrote on 3/10/2008, 12:20 AM
Posted by: Jim H
Date: 3/10/2008 5:25:02 AM
VMP,
Another vote to see a snap of your 200 track project and a short rendered clip.
------------------------------------------

Lol, roger that,

That screen capture animation will probably result in a ' long credit roll' like phenomena. ;-))

I have visited some of the Sony CS events where the team neatly demonstrated the ‘capabelities’ of Vegas, with one video and one audio track.

I constantly had a smile on my face with the following sentence looping in my mind:

“Muhahah they have no idea how my Vegas timeline looks like!!!"

;-))

VMP
VMP wrote on 3/10/2008, 12:48 AM
Ok guys here is a snap lol!

Just don’t let Sony know ok?

The guaranty will void for sure.

VMP
ushere wrote on 3/10/2008, 12:53 AM
link broken.....

leslie

not anymore - my goodness, i'm impressed. thankfully i'm from the old school, (read rock 'n' rolling tapes), so anything above 5 tracks confuses me ;-)


FrigidNDEditing wrote on 3/10/2008, 11:01 AM
Very impressive to be sure. - I've had big projects with lots of tracks, but that sure puts mine to shame :) (maybe size does matter :P ).

Dave
VMP wrote on 3/10/2008, 12:02 PM
Hi Dave,

Don’t let anything put your project (size) to shame! ;-)

The timeline is about 15-20 min that you see now.

Many of the tracks are groups of little effects telling their story.
Not necessarily in child/parent mode.

Sometimes I do split them into a different Vegas files, but having all the elements right there ‘tweak enabled’ gives me a lot of freedom.

This way I can tweak them during playback.
And it gives me a much better workflow than, keeping many Vegas instances opened at the same time.

It is like having all the colors right at my finger tip when painting.

Layered tracks together makes the final image/ audio.

Having folder track option would actually be very helpful.

Also If the audio events could have their own FX applied to it would
also help reduce tracks.
Stiil giving the fast workflow possibility.

I am not sure if Vegas 8 has these options? mine being v7.

This is the sketch process.
Mostly after cleanup the tracks decreases.
By rendering to new tracks etc.

I also save the ‘.veg’ in different versions ‘Projec t X v.1, 2 , 3‘ etc.

This has helped me allot recovering lost events etc.

The final project could be named 'Project X V.223.veg'

The previous ones I put in a folder and zip it, for future recoveries.

VMP
Darren Powell wrote on 3/10/2008, 3:03 PM
OMG 200 TRACKS!!!!

Bollocks ... that snap looks very much like my film project ... maybe I'll post one of my own ... no big deal as far as I'm concerned when working on a 'big project' ... OMG ... or a feature film ... OMG ... just remember that some of the tracks (in my project for example) are duplicates in 5.1 so that I can make one of them an LFE track exclusively to get my sound FX pumping out of the subs in the CInema ... works great when testing small samples in my local cinema through their HD projector ... but again it means that Vegas has to live up to its promise of being able to render 'lots' of tracks ... as I said, that snap is not 'software abuse' ... that's a just a fine looking project with a very interesting soundscape ... now Vegas ... RENDER IT!


Darren Powell
Sydney Australia

PS. Thanks Ted for the link ... I totally missed it ... Cheers.
busterkeaton wrote on 3/10/2008, 3:07 PM
Darren,

Are you using audio buses?