Hey, thanks I'll give it a shot. What I did find out that it burned to a regular DVD using Blu-Ray burner and format and it played back in progressive. Also tried an DVD-RW just in case, same settings, and it also showed it was progressive. This is really weird. Going to give your option a try now.

John

Well I did try your suggestion, but it still said 1080i. I even tried a few different bit rates, nothing. The only thing left that I can think of is the Blu-Ray disc type, RE. I guess I'll have to spring for an R disc and hope it doesn't go in the trash. I appreciate your suggestion and will keep trying until I get a BD-R and possibly a different brand other then Verbatim.

I'll definitely be having Blu-Ray nightmares tonight. LOL

John

"Well I did try your suggestion, but it still said 1080i."

What still says "1080i"???

Create a 30p file to your HDD then re import it to Vegas and have a look at its properties and see what you get.

Ok blink3times, I think I sorta found what the problem, for lack of a better word, might be. I tried your suggestion, and the file was indeed 30p. I then used that preset and still, the TV "display" said it was 1080i.

So, it suddenly dawned on me to try using the bluetooth remote to do a frame-by- frame advance...and sure enough, I purposely burned it to interlace and it showed the fields (interlace lines), when burned to the 30P preset, no fields , no lines, just smooth video, if my eyes served me right.

So...either the TV is interpreting the BD-RE disc incorrectly, or the PS3 is. I plan to drop by Circuit City and pop it in one of their regular players and see what happens. Thanks much for your help.

John

Just a quick update. After buying a Sony BD-RE and 2 TDK BD-r's today I forgot to bring my sample to try out on the stores Blu-Ray player, not a PS3 as I have. After numerous calls to PS3 tech and consumer service at Sony, I've gotten no less then 10 different answers to my questions.

Finally burned to Sony's BD-RE and still comes out 1080i. So I did a search with this line: "BD discs recorded with BDMV format are not supported ps3"; and what I came up with shocked me. BDMV will NOT be supported by the PS3. I find this misleading by Sony, since they touted the 1080P, but in fact does play computer burned BDMV, just not is progressive scan.

I'm waiting for a call back from Sony's consumer affairs, because if the PS3 does not support it, I threw 600 bucks out the window, since I don't play games on it and I want progressive, that's native out of my Canon. Interesting that it will do 24P with exact same template, accept 24P though, weird again.

I also was wrong about my burned disc appearing to be progressive, but when I put a store bought Blu-Ray movie in, and did a frame-by-frame, each frame moved, where-as in my home video, one frame would move, the next would not, etc.

Next step, get my disc to a plain Blu-Ray player at a Circut City or Best Buy and try it on their Blu-Ray players.

If anyone has used this particular setup to burn, please let me know if you are getting the same results as I'm am, I'm just about losing my mind over this issue.

Did Sony goof?

John

"I also was wrong about my burned disc appearing to be progressive, but when I put a store bought Blu-Ray movie in, and did a frame-by-frame, each frame moved, where-as in my home video, one frame would move, the next would not, etc."

I'm not at all sold on the idea that this is any kind real test of 1080p vs 1080i. As you have already demonstrated once... your equipment can easily lie to you.

You brought this file back into vegas and vegas reads it as 1080p, so it clearly that. Try bringing it into another editor and see what you get. My guess is that you will see the same thing (1080p)

You are right, that file is absolutely 1080P in CyberLinks PowerProducer.

Yes, I've tried the software that came with the burner, CyberLink PowerProducer and downloaded their latest version, it does BDAV and BDMV, same problem. Technically speaking, BDMV and BDAV containers will not play in PS3 according to Sony's own spec sheets which I downloaded off their site. However, it does play for me, but only 1080i or 24P. What is going on Sony?

I went to the Sony's Blu-Ray players site and sure enough, their cheaper stand-alone players says or doesn't say it will play BDMV, but their higher end players, in the specs, says it will play BDMV. So there it is. Sony did something to stop BDMV from playing on ps3, because searching back, some versions ago, BDMV containers/files were able to play on the PS3, properly. Sounds likely its an encryption problem, if we can't add studio style Blu-Ray specific encryption, it won't play on many players and the PS3, is my guess now.

This is starting to turn out to be a real "nightmare". I believe my many calls to different Sony's departments will eventually reveal the facts, after all, what format in hi-def can one burn from Vegas so that a customer will be able to view it on Blu-Ray; that's an interesting question for those of you who make a primary living off this, I do not.

John

FYI - the Blu-ray Disc spec does not support 1080/30p. You can do 1080/60i or 1080/24p, but that's about it (unless you're in a PAL country, as 25p and 50i are supported as well.) It's not the PS3 that's to blame, nor is it Sony Vegas - it's in the specs.

This is why it pays to do research before you buy, not after.

On the bright side, 30p flagged as 60i looks pretty darned good.

Yes Laurence you're right. I have done that and it looked almost as if it were progressive. I had hope to get into some small work, church, school events eventually and offer Blu-Ray, but that's just not an option at this point.

That HDV down-converted in Vegas and authored to DVD using DVDit Pro HD to regular DVD's looks extremely good upscaling it to 1080P playing it in the PS3. Boy new technology is a bummer sometimes.

Thanks for everyone's input and help.

John

>>>On the bright side, 30p flagged as 60i looks pretty darned good.

Yep. See Nine Inch Nails: Beside You In Time for an example of how well it can look, when done properly.

>>>I had hope to get into some small work, church, school events eventually and offer Blu-Ray, but that's just not an option at this point.

It's still an option as long as you don't insist on creating 1080/30p BDs. If that really is a deal-breaker, then there's really nothing more we can do for you.

Reality check: if your clients are going to be churches, schools, etc., do you honestly believe that they will be able to tell a difference between 1080/30p and 1080/60i? Not likely.

Why not just shoot in 1080/60i and call it good? If it's good enough for the Discovery Channel, it should be good enough for your clients. For the footage you've already shot, deliver it as 1080/60i and no one in that church will ever know the difference (assuming you do it properly and don't introduce artifacts during the conversion.) It will certainly look better than any SD DVD version.

Just my opinion...

Yup, that's true. My 30P to 60i looks pretty good, though so does the down-converted HDV to DVD using a good up-scaler, which as far as I've tested, the PS3 does the best job. At least on my TV it looks good, can't speak for someone else's.

I suppose I'll be waiting for all players and PS3's to play Blu-Ray 30P. After all, that's what Blu-Ray supposed to be about, (IMHO) better quality, progressive scan, etc. Interlaced is not exactly new stuff. I have a 4000 camera and can't use 30P to Blu_Ray because Sony decided that. I might as well use my VX2100, best in it's class for SD for me.

Though what confuses me is why their more expensive players will play BDMV files and the bottom line players won't; a simple firmware fix, money, or both. Only time will tell. For now your suggestion makes sense, with the Discovery Channel analogy.

John

>>>I suppose I'll be waiting for all players and PS3's to play Blu-Ray 30P.
You'll be waiting an awfully long time, since it's not a part of the specs. It's not Sony's fault, despite your claims to the contrary. Sony is not the only member of the BDA, you know. For whatever reason, 30p is not a part of the spec and that's all there is to it.

Unfortunately, you've fallen victim to marketing. You've had the notion that nothing less than 1080p is acceptable and that progressive is always superior to interlaced, no matter what. You're under the spell so much that you're prepared to give your clients SD DVDs instead of 1080/60i BDs, simply because you have it in your head that BD is supposed to be progressive and therefore anything less is inferior.

I'm having a tough time understanding your thought process and I'm really at a loss here. You'd really rather have your footage delivered at SD DVD resolution than 1080/60i? Really?

Good luck with that...

OK, maybe it's not just Sony, but it's their equipment mostly) and software that's involved right now. Could you explain the purpose of having a Canon XH-A1 Hi Def HDV Camcorder, with those frame rates and options...to what medium shall I give hi-def to, if not Blu-Ray?

Like I said, I'm not doing weddings and other high ticket jobs. But people are going to be used to watching movies in 1080P, no doubt about that, it's already at Blockbuster. What we get from Satellite, granted, is 1080i, looks good. But people will eventually start seeing the difference between 1080i and progressive, if that wasn't the case, DVD player's would have stayed at 480i and no one would complain...and we now know that all if not most DVD players are progressive scan. I've seen the difference before I had a mini consumer DV camera. I wouldn't under-estimate peoples view point, they will be educated eventually, if not already. I believe people, ignorant or not, will want the best for their dollar, that's how it goes. The very poor might have to make due, but they will also be aware of the difference. I'd like to provide the best I can to even friends, and not tell them interlaced is better, because in my opinion, it looks good, but not nearly as good as progressive, if filmed right.

I have a martial arts instructional video project to do very soon, my first real job, so I am looking to provided the best, or I'll just pull out my VX2100 and that's that.

Blu-Ray should be held up to a higher standard, not just for Hollywood, but for people like yourself< assuming here) that make their "bread-and_butter doing this work. Besides, Blu-Ray did tout 1080P 720P as a significant selling point for Hollywood movies. We can do the same, with less flair to DVD's, what's the difference?

John

>>>OK, maybe it's not just Sony, but it's their equipment mostly) and software that's involved right now.

The specs are what they are. If you were so concerned about 30p support, you should have done the research before making your purchases. Nobody can force you to make informed decisions - it's up to you and you alone.

>>>Could you explain the purpose of having a Canon XH-A1 Hi Def HDV Camcorder, with those frame rates and options...to what medium shall I give hi-def to, if not Blu-Ray?

Sure. See, up until a few months ago, there were actually two HD optical choices: HD DVD and Blu-ray. The recently deceased HD DVD supported 30p. Also, there is such a thing as internet distribution. Just because the delivery method you've chosen does not support 30p does not mean that 30p is useless for other methods. Also, as we've stated, the NIN disc proves that, when done properly, the quality can be retained even when the footage has been flagged as 60i (the disc sports reference video and audio.)

>>>Blu-Ray should be held up to a higher standard, not just for Hollywood, but for people like yourself< assuming here) that make their "bread-and_butter doing this work.

You're making a lot of assumptions here, starting with the assumption that I have lower standards simply because I'm not up in arms over the fact that the BD spec does not support 30p. You're missing the forest for the trees here. The difference between 1080 @ 30p and 60i is nowhere close to the difference between DV resolutions and HD. It's not even the same ballpark. Do what you want though - there's nothing more I can say.

BTW - the biggest difference (in terms of PQ) between cable/satellite movies vs movies on BD is not that one is progressive and one is interlaced. It's the bitrate and time spent manually tweaking the encode (as well as advanced video codecs in many cases, though even MPEG-2 looks great when it's not bit-starved.) Newer (and better) HD masters being struck for certain releases have also contributed.

"I went to the Sony's Blu-Ray players site and sure enough, their cheaper stand-alone players says or doesn't say it will play BDMV, but their higher end players, in the specs, says it will play BDMV."

Unlike the now dead hd dvd format, there is no set standard on BD machines, and because of that they are literally ALL OVER THE MAP. You really need to do your homework CAREFULLY before buying a machine. You need to go through the specs with a fine-tooth comb BOTH the audio and video end to make sure it will do what you want. To date, I don't think there is ONE that actually does it all so you will most likely have to make sacrifice here and there to get what you need.

Yes, you're right, I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I'm at best a serious amateur and have lots to learn and time to do it.

Just last night, I put in Live Free or Die Hard Blu-Ray, store bought and it said BDMV, which PS3 claims not to support, of course it played in all its full resolution glory, even on a 60" RP TV sitting at about 12 ft away; so my conclusion as an amateur, is that it has something to do with piracy, copy protection etc.

I don't know what DVD5 holds, but hopefully something I can deliver, yes yes, lol in progressive. I must have the progressive mania thing in my head. Thanks to all that helped, including someone I consulted with, off the boards.

John

My el cheapo Toshiba A3 HD-DVD player only does 1080i it does not support progressive. The picture still looks amazing.

If I can find render settings that will create 1080 content with DVDA5 that play on a Sony 300 and PS3, I'm happy if the picture looks amazing and don't care if it's "i" or"P".

I know, you're right, just jumping ahead of the technology, or trying to. lol I do remember when VHS was replaced by DVD, 480i, as I said in a somewhere previously, then came 480P, who wanted 480 i anymore? People, including myself loved the smooth video.

Guess I'm using that same though process. And yes, 601 Blu-Ray does look awesome, no doubt about that. I'm still learning.

John

"People, including myself loved the smooth video."

Now wait a minute! If you mean smooth as in "smooth motion," then you are seeing things. 30P has a temporal resolution of 29.97 individual images per second. 60i has 59.94 images per second. So, 60i has twice the temporal (time) resolution as 30p and almost 2.5 times more than 24p.

Now, about your other problem. You can put a 30p clip into a 60i render and it will act exactly the same as if the render were 30p. In interlaced video, a single field is all the even lines and the next field is all the odd lines. (Depending on the field dominance.) Each field is taken 1/59.94th of a second later in time. A single frame is made up of two fields. If you take your 30p footage and render it out as 60i, there will be no movement between the first field and the second, thus preserving the 30p temporal resolution. This is why Blu-Ray doesn't explicitly support 30p, it already does in the form of 60i.

Well said, John.