I'm with you John. Get it right and then you don't have to f! around later.

I realize there is no magic bullet. Any suggestions on camera settings?

What HDV camera performs well in these types of situations?

Thank you.

Your existing footage could be a great opportunity to practice masking to reduce the background noise in Vegas no less.

Great posts on this exact situation (dark noise) here in past years as I recall, worth a search.

I just searched "dark noise" and din't come up with much. What am I doing wrong? Totally Lost...that's the name. I promise I won't ask you how to wipe my *ss! ; )

Sorry for being so clueless.

Well, I tried a couple of different searches and came up empty-handed too.

I remember specifically one good post by Spot/DSE where he was curing noisy footage that was shot on stage I think, by masking the foreground and applying a blur to the background only.

Somebody else here may remember (and it may also be on the VASST.com site, greate resource that's worth for you to visit also!).

Or just read up on bezier masks and see if you can make a mask to follow the foreground of your shot, then blur the snot out of that dark noise in the background.

There are also some noise reduction programs for video that can be used with Vegas, but those take a bit of work too, even if the price is "right."

Another thing: I am mortally afraid of using any designation that indicates I can't do something. Why? Because it so easily turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Like Henry Ford said (yes, that Ford): If you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right!

Don't you think my knees have been shaking a lot at times? You bet they have, they used to clatter "The Starspangled Banner" against each other every time I was in front of a large audience or on the radio, and it was only by "faking it until I could make it" that I could get through it. Fake my braveness that is.

How about "Totally Found It"?

I have counseled a lot of people (several thousand) across the U.S. and Canada who have been through certain very traumatic events in their lives, and I have found that 90% of the time they immediately get to the steep part of the hockey stick on their progress curve when they decide to "look forward, not backward" and "fake it until they can make it". And this certainly wasn't my invention. Thousands, if not millions, before me found it to be effective, and I think it is an essential part of the American national treasure.

Really. That is 100% serious, and the foundation for progress in any area, both individually and for all of us as a society.

I use the name because I want to be meek here in this forum on purpose. Keep the screaming blue meanies down to a minimum and get real advice.

I am trying to put my ego aside and actually learn something.

I'm in the music industry and have access to top level acts with full permission to shoot. Problem is I am an audio guy and am just learning the ropes of video. I am dissappointed with my shots and am trying to troubleshoot. I am a pro on the audio level and want my expertise and skills to match with video. I am a realist and realize only years of shooting and editing experience will get me there, or maybe I just don't have the talent. That's a reality too. Only time will tell.

I think the first reply was by far the most valid. Get it right out of the gate, band aides are lame at best and the rule of thumb is if you "FIX" one thing, several other negative things happen as a result. Trade offs are abound; do it right from the start and don't get in a comprimising situation in the first place.

But since I am "Totally Lost" and can't shoot yet to save my life, I am in this band aid situation.

Thanks for the blur suggestion and all the others. Any other tricks out there?

OK, background helps in trying to understand your needs.

So you do need a camera with better low light performance. Sorry I can't help you, don't shoot HDV for the moment, but there are plenty of people here who do so it should be easy to get good recommendations for best camera for the buck.

Are you planning to do the video for a hobby or for income?

If it's the latter, there are some very different cameras that are no more difficult to use but give a dramatically better picture, although at a higher price.

Yes, A better camera is a quick solution. But not nessacarily a fix, unfortunately there is a camera operator.

I selected the HC3 because it is small and less obtrusive. A lot of subjects think it's a digital camera and tend to act more natural. Big cameras imho tend to freak people out and they start acting unnatural.

To answer your other question, I am doing this for income. But must also premise my final output will be to the web. So standards, for now, are quite low (for the internet).

I feel my work is acceptable (barely) for internet presentation, however I aspire to do the best job I can and eventually have a pro look and feel to my work.

So there are no other plug ins that might work?

What HDV cameras preform well in low light?

Thanks!

Must it be HDV? If not there are some very good low light DV Models from Sony the PD170 springs to mind.


If you want small HDV the A1U, may be better you can rent one for a day and try it. The Z1 will be much better in low light but bigger. The V1 in low light don't know, only Spot could anwer that as it's not shipping yet and he has one.

I remeber Spot saying that the V1 is the best in low light of all the Sony HDV camcorders.

It doesn't have to be HDV although I like the thought of archiving in a higher resolution. But archiving horrible looking video in any format reallty doesn't matter what resolution it's in.

The thing is I am not ready to plunk down $4-8k on a camera when I am a pathetic shooter. I've got to be able to shoot decently with an average camera before I can utilize the tools on a real one. I am 4 months into this and am very slowly improving. I am just trying to get proficent at the basics first.

The big problem is that I don't have a lot of time to experiment. I have my audio day gig. At night, when I have energy left I edit video. On weekends, Sat and Sun, I am shooting events all day long. Many include live music, sometimes outside, sometimes in tents, sometimes outside at night with lighting etc., etc.

Composition wise I pretty much stick to the law of thirds but still haven't mastered my camera yet. I want to be able to master my camera first and confirm it is the weak link before I upgrade.

So in the meantime I am shooting sub par footage. It's killing me because I have some great "moments" but there is noise in the background. Obviously I need to learn to manipulate my camera better but also want to find a way too improve/tweak my existing footage by digital manipulation.

You may want look at the VX2000 for its low light capability. While it is a big camera, you can find one used for $900 - $1000 US.

Its weak spot is the audio section. Suggest you shoot double sound with minidisk or a cd recorder or some other digital media. The camera and the recording will stay in sync just fione for your purposes.

RalphM

I've seen the same problem even with footage from a PD150 where there was plenty of light, band well lit by daylight and a bank of spots. Things was again, there's lots of blackout cloth in the shot. In general the shots were too hot, the camera was setting exposure for the average not the brightest part of the frame.

If you've got a lit subject against black / very dark try putting the camera into Spotlight. If you've not got that try setting the AE SHift to minus 1. What you want to avoid with HDV is getting the noise into the encoder, HDV doesn't not do noise well, it's mpeg-2. DVD doesn't do noise well either. Better to have a slightly underexposed shot with less noise that you bump up in post than a perfectly exposed shot with noise.

Please test this first, that's what I'm finding, you may not get the same results.

In post Mike Crash's Noise Reduction plug works very well.
You can also try crushing the blacks using Curves but I've found this to be of marginal value.

As to better cameras.
Well the XDCAM F350 is going to give you the best results I think but it's too BIG for what you're doing. You could add a light to the HC3, the Zylight would give you the most light for a small package but again no way is anyone not going to know they're being videoed. As mentioned the V1 might be good but again it's bigger.
Here's a thought from 'out there'. Do you need this /all of this in color?
If not get a big IR light and use the camera in Night Shot. Big IR lights can be pretty cheap, no visible light etc. Convert to B&W in post. Will work fine if what you want is a record of what happened back stage etc.

Bob.

NeatVideo is (probably) releasing a noise reduction plug-in to Vegas in the near future. At the moment the company has a plug-in for Adobe Premier Pro/Elements, Adobe After Effects and VirtualDub. The plug-in is really good (but slow).

TMPGEnc 3 and 4 also has a nice noise reduction plug-in that both perform spatial and temporal noise reduction.

More information about NeatVideo at:

http://www.neatvideo.com/index.html

Best wishes,
Joran

Now we're talkin' ! Farss your right on the money. I used the "sunset and moon" program AE setting on the HC 3 but didn't have the guts to switch over to the "spotlight" and possibly ruin the shot.

What exactly is the program AE function. What is it manipulation in the camera in order for it to get lower noise?

What camera mechanics 101 book do you guys recommned? DETAILING in laymens terms, exposure, apature, iris ect.

Also thanks for all the plug in suggestions I will check those out too.

Program AE lets you dial in an offset against the auto exposure.

So with AE Offset = -1 it set the exposure 1 stop lower.

Suggest reading the camera manual :)

Try experimenting, just create something similar to what you're shooting at home, a desk lamp will do to simulate a real spotlit scene. Turn the room light off.

Bob.

The "sunset and moon" setting increases gain as much as possible to help you shoot in low light. OF course this also increases video noise quite a bit.

The "spotlight" setting is used to indicate that the camera should expose for the highlights (i.e. where the lights are shining, not the shadowy background).

That change alone will give you a vast improvement, and you'll probably find that you'll be just fine with your current camcorder.

Your best bet is to sit down with the camera and manual and go through every feature it offers. Then experiment under all kinds of lighting situations and play with the various menu settings. Keep notes (or talk while you're doing things so it gets recorded) so you remember what the settings were.
In conjunction with proper exposure, learning how to use zebras (see below) are another thing that will help a lot. Basically, you set exposure to manual and then use zebras to determine the proper level.
camcorderinfo did a review on this camera and I've posted some relevant comments below.

Exposure (Aperture):

Access to exposure is in the exposure sub-menu on the first page of the P-menu touch screen interface. The exposure submenu displays a black frame with label, + / - buttons for controlling exposure levels, auto and manual buttons for switching between shooting modes, and a return button. All of these on-screen buttons are opaque overlays which obscure a large portion of the LCD screen in the same fashion as do other manual controls, such as focus. Once the manual exposure button is pressed, a sliding scale without numerical markers appears across the center of the screen, covering even more of the LCD with overlays. This scale has 24 exposure steps that can be accessed by pressing either the + or – buttons, and changes to exposure levels result in immediate changes to the image, something not found on the budget priced and problem-plagued Sanyo Xacti HD1. Like manual focus, exposure levels can be set externally by switching the camera control ring to manual exposure.

Other Features:

Camera Color - The Camera Color feature is comparable to the saturation control found on the camcorders of other manufacturers. The display produces a horizontal scale across the center of the screen. Users will notice changes in saturation levels as they scan the length of this scale, thanks to the live view capabilities of the Camera Color feature. The ability to both increase and decrease saturation levels with this camcorder is a great inclusion, considering the tendency of Sony camcorders to produce overly saturated video quality that can sometimes be a bit too saccharine.

Zebra Striping - The zebra striping feature is an in-camera option that warns users when the brightness levels of the footage are too brilliant and will result in compromised video quality, a problem most prevalent with whites that will appear blown out. Diagonal striping appears across overly bright sections of video; users can immediately compensate for this problem by adjusting exposure settings or other controls. The diagonal bars do not appear on the final video.

Histogram - The Sony HDR-HC3 does contain a histogram feature and, while undersized for really nuanced gauging of possible brightness levels in postproduction editing, it will at least provide some users with a visible diagram for evaluating their highlights, mid-tones, and shadows in a rudimentary live time format.

Mike

It is certainly possible to apply a noise-reduction filter more strongly to the dark areas of the picture than to the brighter areas. That's usually what you want to do, because the blacks are always more noisy than the whites (unless they've been pre-filtered in camera.)

There is a "Dynamic Noise Reduction" filter for Vegas by Mike Crash available here:
http://www.mikecrash.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownload&cid=13

It can average sucessive frames together in regions where there is no motion which can reduce random pixel noise a lot. BUT if you turn up the strength to reduce noise a lot, it may leave artifacts you're not happy with. Try playing with the controls and see what hapens.